Also an interesting article by Ben Visser (ex of Shell Oil) in the latest General Aviation News and Flyer regarding the use of ethanol containing gasoline in aircraft. He notes that one of the issues is deterioration of rubber parts in the fuel system, including rubber parts going into the engine with the fuel. He advises that some ethanol may not be a problem, but check your fuel system's components, etc.

Sounds familiar .

MTV

Here is some new info. 30% ethanol should have mid 90's octane rating.



ACEA new study released today by the American Coalition for Ethanol shows that mid-range ethanol blends - fuel mixtures with more ethanol than E10 but less than E85 - can in some cases provide better fuel economy than regular unleaded gasoline, even in standard, non-flex-fuel vehicles.

The new research strongly suggests that there is an “optimal blend level” of ethanol and gasoline - most likely E20 or E30 - at which cars will get better mileage than predicted based strictly on the fuel’s per-gallon Btu content. The new study, co-sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy and the American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE), also found that mid-range ethanol blends reduce harmful tailpipe emissions.

The University of North Dakota Energy & Environmental Research Center (EERC) and the Minnesota Center for Automotive Research (MnCAR) conducted the research using four 2007 model vehicles: a Toyota Camry, a Ford Fusion, and two Chevrolet Impalas, one flex-fuel and one non-flex-fuel. Researchers used the EPA Highway Fuel Economy Test (HWFET) to examine a range of ethanol-gasoline blends from straight Tier 2 gasoline up to 85 percent ethanol. All of the vehicles got better mileage with ethanol blends than the ethanol’s energy content would predict, and three out of four actually traveled farther on a mid-level ethanol blend than on unleaded gasoline.

With 30% ethanol in gas we will have to invent synthetic eggs.

Tim

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention earlier: Yesterday I filled my vehicle (which is a flex fuel vehicle) up with E-85 at a local station. The pump for the E-85 is on the same island as the one for gasoline. I couldn't help but notice that the HOSE on the E-85 pump was a different color, and had a different number on it than the hose for the auto gas (which here has 10% etoh). Also, the alcohol hose was REALLY stiff as a goat in the -10 degree temps. I picked up the gasoline nozzle, and that hose was much more flexible, so it is apparent that the gas stations are using very different compounds of rubber for the high alcohol content fuel.

MTV

There is apparently quite a large investment required for a station to sell E-85. I assume it's more than hoses.
I saw that on the local news, it was given as the reason you won't find E-85 around here. Of course the push is for the government to pay the cost for new equipment

I have built a few gas stations and I know that some of the piping that we have done in the past, double wall fiberglass for instance, could be adversly affected by this E85 fuel. If government pays for the upgrade then that means that taxpayers pay for the upgrade.

Let me see here. That means that the station builders get rich along with the corn producers. Well maybe I like this stuff now.

Tim

The gas stations around here use steel wrapped in fiberglass double wall tanks. To put E85 in the tanks in this area, the tanks don't have to be touched. Getting fuel dispensers that are UL approved is the hangup. It looks to me like the oil companies told UL to take their time and not be in too big of a hurry getting anything certified. Stations that are selling E85 now don't know what will happen to their pumps when the UL approval finally happens.

mtv, I asked a friend on an E85 website that is in charge of a bunch of stations in Wisconsin about your hose observation? He works for an ethanol plant by Oshkosh that direct markets ethanol as 10,20,and 85% through blender pumps thus cutting out the middlemen and sometimes their E85 is $1 a gallon less than the competitors unleaded. Here is his response below. Also, glad you're using E85.

Some do use a blue hose for E85 to distinguish it as a different product. In the beginning we all used methanol hoses because no one would claim to the govt that a standard hose would not break down inside or have issues connector corrosion. Since then E85 specific equip has been made. Often a standard hose and nozzle work better than the methanol ones. Methanol vapor recovery nozzles did not work for me at all- they would leak in the first month (and cost $350) while a standard gas vapor recovery nozzle on E85 typically lasts until someone crashes into it or the trigger spring breaks. I use black ethanol hoses which I suspect are the same rubber compounds as gas but with different ends (sometimes)- cant buy 6" whip hoses so they are standard gas. Out of 48 hoses I have only replaced one and it was an early methanol (M85) hose that got stiff and cracked after 2 years in the sun- similar life to some "farm" hoses. If your guy noticed a difference- it was most likely due to the difference between a "hardwall" curb hose and a "softwall" hose- both are available for gas but only "hardwall" is available for ETOH.

The hoses I see are all white. I'm opting to use E-85 RIGHT NOW because its a buck a gallon cheaper, which makes it just a little cheaper to run than gasoline. As soon as the price point gets a little closer, I'm back to gasoline.

Right now, a significantly better price is still the only logical reason to use ethanol. Still costs WAY too much fossil fuel to make it, and it still has to be subsidized too much.

It'll get there someday, maybe, it certainly has in South America.

This truck has a fuel flow computer, so it tells you what your gas mileage is right now. Pretty dramatic to see the difference between ETOH and Gas.

MTV

The truck's fuel computer works on what the computer commands as far as fuel flow, it does not actually measure fuel flow. The "chip" in my truck messes with it for example as it adds fuel that the computer doesn't know about. I only bring this up because if the viscosity of E-85 is different than gasoline the actual fuel flow may be different.
I'd be curious if there is a difference between commanded fuel flow and actual with E-85

a64pilot, Specific gravity of denatured ethanol is .79 and .74 for RBOB(gasoline).

I didn't know alcohol was heavier than gasoline. What I wonder if all other variables are constant, will more alcohol flow through an injector in a given amount of time than gasoline? I think maybe to know your actual fuel mileage you would have to calculate it the old fashioned way.

Have a look here:

http://www.distill.com/materialsafety/msds-usa.html

http://www.distill.com/materialsafety/msds-usa.html

Look at flash points etc. and vapor pressures. These could make real differences in ignition and vapor locks.

TD

I can tell you, based on how frequently I have to fill the tank, that E-85 provides WAAAAYYY fewer miles per gallon than gasoline with 10 % ETOH.

THat observation has also been widely made by a lot of people.

Ethanol is NOT the answer, just yet.

MTV

Mike, just for grins, do you have any mpg figures for E85 vs gasoline?

19 for gasoline, compared to 13 for E-85. That's only for a couple tanks of gas each, and average driving, so may not be precisely comparable, but they're pretty close to accurate.

MTV

mtv wrote

That's only for a couple tanks of gas each,

Mike, From what I understand, it takes three tanks of E85 in a row for the computer to optimize engine performance since the new vehicles don't have a sensor in the gas line like my old 2001 Taurus telling the computer just what percentage is in the tank. Probably won't get much better but maybe a little.
Marty

Marty,

With the current price differential, I'll run several tanks through and see what happens. I do know that these engines "learn" as they go.

MTV

FYI: When we used to run a WISOTA Modified stock car we ran 100LL in it, pump unleaded gas would burn pistons. We could run three races a night and not fill the tank. We switched to alcohol, it took bigger carb venuries and jets, the engine ran a lot cooler, but we ran out of gas half way through the second race....burned allmost twice as much fuel to get the same power.

highcountry wrote

We switched to alcohol

Ethanol or methanol, there is quite a difference. Methanol has half the btu's of gasoline and ethanol about 2/3's.