Darkness has fallen again. I hope they at least found them either to help them, or to give closure to the families. I have been looking at the JC webcam all day and looking for updates. Waiting...

Still nothing? I guess we wait for CAP to open up the airspace so someone competent can find them. This incident was the tipping point today that made me spring for the new locator beacon coupled to my gps. The plane interior was already gutted for new bladders and I needed a battery in the old elt so I pulled the trigger. Even the cap clowns should be able to find me if guided to within 20 feet .

Update as of 1810L idaho time. nothing....
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2013/12/0 ... s-set.html

Scolopax wrote:

Grassstrippilot wrote:I've seen this app. Interesting and potentially really useful. I wonder, though, how it compensates for wind if it's not hooked up to an AHRS.

I believe that it uses GPS ground speed, which factors in wind, but doesn't account for glide ratio. It's definitely not a G1000, but it might come in handy in the event of an engine failure where there are airports within gliding distance. I would probably fly above the glide hoops in an emergency, as energy is easier to get rid of than add it when your engine is out.

I was wondering about that and kind of thought maybe it had some kind of algorithm to use ground speed.

Nosedragger wrote:Still nothing? I guess we wait for CAP to open up the airspace so someone competent can find them. This incident was the tipping point today that made me spring for the new locator beacon coupled to my gps. The plane interior was already gutted for new bladders and I needed a battery in the old elt so I pulled the trigger. Even the cap clowns should be able to find me if guided to within 20 feet .

Don't get me started.... ..

These guys are so sure they DON'T need help.... They have the TFR booked up for 6 more days...

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_3_6202.html

Grassstrippilot wrote:Now I see the wisdom in making it an outing for both Dee and me.

Not trying to convince you to become to "preppish" - but the whole family can probably use a little "just in case."

I have nightmares about the little girl who survived her mom and her fiance by 2-3 days and her foot prints all around in the snow.

The two things I have learned about accidents in our mountanous area:

1) We have a hard time finding airplanes. A PLB, Spot, etc. is a major help if you want to be found before you die from the elements. If possible activate it before you crash as part of your emegergency checklist. This will help prevent surviving the crash only to die later.

2) In a lot of overdue incidents, the search really doesn't start until day 2 or day 3 due to bad weather, which of course is usually a contributing factor to the accident itself. No easy fix here, we all know how important weather is and call our own shots... but something to consider if I want to travel as a bad weather system is coming in... if I go down, the weather coming, not present conditions, will be what the search and rescue will be dealing with.

XAVION = $99.99. One of the reviewers really down rated it, because (he says) it can't be run in the background, so if it were needed, it would need to completely start up, which would take several seconds.

It certainly seems like something with potential, though.

Cary

Don't get me started.... ..

These guys are so sure they DON'T need help.... They have the TFR booked up for 6 more days...

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_3_6202.html[/quote]

I would like everybody, but particularly my friends, searching for me. CAP means well, but...

soyAnarchisto wrote:I have nightmares about the little girl who survived her mom and her fiance by 2-3 days and her foot prints all around in the snow.

This haunts me too, every time I hear about an accident or think about taking my kids flying. I just can't decide if I should buy a PLB and hope the CAP guys don't screw it up or buy a SPOT and hope it works so my flying buddies can come get me.

I hate just sitting here.

whee wrote:I just can't decide if I should buy a PLB and hope the CAP guys don't screw it up or buy a SPOT and hope it works so my flying buddies can come get me.

I hate just sitting here.

Buy both, plus a 406 elt coupled to your gps. If the weather's too crap for the CAP - with a gps fix they can launch ground crews in much worse weather and far sooner than a few days. The reason it takes that long is because there's no clear indication of where to start - so they are grid searching from the air. Mountain SAR in many of our favorite locations are highly trained, volunteer mountain/backcountry/high angle specialists - if they only know where to look. Even air scent search dogs can cover or clear good size areas, but they gotta know what state you are in.

soyAnarchisto wrote:Buy both...

Agreed. When flying in or over mountains or other treacherous terrain I fly with a Delorme inReach running (similar to a Spot), and have a PLB within reach.

I prefer these options as I can move them between planes.

Well you guys have convinced me to just go activate my SPOT for the first time since I got it over six years ago. I went for the first flight in my plane today over the cascades in real cold wintery conditions (I only acquired it in late April), and was thinking about this thread the entire time. I realized the survivability in my plane is rather high due to the fact I believe I could "safely" crash it about 20mph and with full restraint harness I feel pretty safe in that sense. So coming back to this thread and reading those last few posts convinced me its time to finally activate it. Now I'm heading into the garage to put my survival kit back together.


In regards to the original thread topic, hopefully something is found soon, by the sounds of it the CAP may not be the best suited for searching in such situations. As I guarantee there are lots of guys on here and elsewhere who could provide some invaluable eyes and expertise, but don't feel the need to join a militaristic organization to do so. Organization in a SAR operation like this is probably pretty critical, but the way I see it the more the merrier.

Okay so my question is that the 406 Mhz beacon is a direct satellite link beacon is this correct? An article I read says that an ELT beacon was detected but it was bouncing around. So would the 406 signal bounce around like that or would a signal from a 121.5 beacon only do that? This new crash brings back horrible thoughts......I hope they are Ok, but my heart tells me they are not...

Don Sheldon was so successful in locating so many people search and rescue because he knew the area and terrain he was looking in. And he did so with much less sophisticated equipment. My opinion is the people that are looking should be familiar with the area and proficient at flying in local terrain.

I was in the civil air patrol before I could drive. There was just something about it, I could not get into it, so I quit.

At the beginning of this year I considered rejoining and went to a few meetings. All that I found there were a bunch of blowhards that just wanted to fly airplanes for free. After each session with the cadets the elder members, aka- "senior cadets" to would gather around and talk about how much they know about everything. I remember thinking do I want these idiots looking for me out in the middle of nowhere? Not all of them were bad, but the general organization is a joke.

So not much has changed since I was a kid.

No thanks, not for me.

ShysDad wrote:So would the 406 signal bounce around like that or would a signal from a 121.5 beacon only do that?

The combination of weak signal and report of it bouncing off the mountains indicates to me it is a 121.5 beacon.

ShysDad wrote:Okay so my question is that the 406 Mhz beacon is a direct satellite link beacon is this correct? An article I read says that an ELT beacon was detected but it was bouncing around. So would the 406 signal bounce around like that or would a signal from a 121.5 beacon only do that? This new crash brings back horrible thoughts......I hope they are Ok, but my heart tells me they are not...

I know I'll get corrected if my memory doesn't serve me correctly, but here is what I remember regarding the differences with the 406 system.

- While some of the earlier units did not have an integrated GPS, most now do...or can get the data from another source in your aircraft if so set up.

- The 406 MHz range makes the signal more accurate.

- With the old system, line of site between the ELT, the satellite, and the ground receiving station was required. With the 406 system, the GPS coordinates can be uplinked and retained by the satellite until the next time the satellite crosses overhead a ground receiving station. At that point it will download the information. Line of sight isn't required.

And, at least for my PLB, if I remember right, it transmits on 406 MHz as well as 121.5...the latter for use for homing in on the aircraft from the air during a search if needed. But if the GPS coordinates are received, it wouldn't be needed.

Here is some good side by side comparison I just found.

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf

FYI, even before this accident I told Dee I want my Spot re-activated for Christmas. This has driven it home even more.

The 406 signal is far more advanced - it has an encoded message in it - with the last known gps location. So the fact that it "bounces" around doesn't matter - if they got the signal - they have a lock on your location.

121.5 is just a sine wave. No encoded position. The only way to find one is with triangulation with separate equipment.

"Bouncing" signals is called mulitlateration - triangulation in presence of multilateration introduces a lot more error.

It's the difference between broadcasting your position versus putting out a simple signal that other equipment has to do math to figure out where you are. Just better technology.

This is exactly what a PLB is - except you carry it in your pocket instead of having it permanently attached to the plane.

This stuff is cheap insurance. Redundancy with multiple devices and improved technology.

http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/personal-locator-beacons.html

ShysDad wrote:Okay so my question is that the 406 Mhz beacon is a direct satellite link beacon is this correct? An article I read says that an ELT beacon was detected but it was bouncing around. So would the 406 signal bounce around like that or would a signal from a 121.5 beacon only do that?

A 406 beacon bounces less and provides better sensitivity, though I cannot explain the physics of why. My guess would be that it's as simple as a tighter wavelength and a 50x more powerful transmitter.

The big win though, is when the 406 technology is paired with a GPS. Then the signal has the GPS coordinates of the ELT encoded into the signal. When that is true then, yes, satellites can receive it. But also ground based assets.

e.g.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/a ... con406.php
http://www.beckerusa.com/bd406-beacon-decoder/

looking down the strip on the web cam there is a large clear area where the snow has been removed... so maybe they have a helo looking also...which would be a plus....