Here is the SAR method I'm most familiar with. Section 4 specifically: http://www.public.navy.mil/airfor/srss/ ... SARTAC.pdf

ShysDad wrote:"Authorities had earlier asked civilian volunteers to avoid the search area, but on Thursday opened the effort to volunteer pilots who may wish to use their own aircraft. Those interested in doing so were asked to first call Smith at 208-382-7319."
This is from the Salt Lake Tribune. Last year when Shy was missing, they would not allow this. I raised HOLY HELL with everybody and apparently they listened. So if anyone is in the area and can lend assistance please do so. The family needs our help and if I was a pilot with an aircraft I would drop everything and go help them...God BLess....

Shysdad..... As you know I did my best at getting out the tragic story down in Filmore UT since I was the one who forwarded the email from that "concerned" person who knew the intimate details of that botched operation... I have taken ALOT of heat from my actions that none of you guys can appreciate, but I would do it again in a heartbeat.......

With that said I am going to get severe feedback on this observation but................ My gut feeling is there is a huge LDS connection /angle playing out on this crash...... Funny how "they" can mobilze a few hundred people and post a TFR, but most other crashes get a couple of searchers and small blurb in the local paper... IMHO....


Flame suit on........

That is an interesting angle that I have also thought about. I read somewhere that blackhawks were out even before the CAP became involved. Has anyone else read that? If true, I find that development interesting. Actually not really, if true I know why that happened. It was one of the things I blasted homeland security about. Regardless, until those people are found this should still be a SAR and all available assets should be utilized.

I just called the the IDAHO TRANSPORTATION DEPARTMENT Telephone 208-334-8787 and talked to a MR STAN ETTER who said he was the one who issued the TFR and his major concern was untrained people in Mountainous Terrain and untrained people in search and rescue operations. Also they have had up to 5 aircraft in the area and one was a uh-60 and another was a Lakota and they did not want to have to many aircraft in the area and have another incident or search!
Not that it makes any differance, but I think 2 helo's and 3 fixed wings in that amount of area sure could use some help??

I agree that some training would be necessary or we may be causing more harm than good. Now is not the time, unfortunately. We need to be prepared in advance with coordinators and a search plan. Training of volunteers does not need to be enormous or cumbersome. Search coordinators do not want/need random people - what they need is pre-coordinated, trained volunteers - that they know and trust and have agreed to search best practices and safety guidelines.

What we need is a voluntary airplane based search volunteer organization like the MRA. This model can be extended to airplane search - just like it has for wilderness and dog-searches, all still under the control of law enforcement authorities.

But it cannot be the CAP. The people you need in the air will not join and deal with that organization. This is a solved problem. We don't call the national guard or the army to search for lost climber, hikers and children.

http://www.mra.org/

We have the ability to self-rescue as an group. We should organize and do it. AOPA, RAF, state pilot orgs. It needs to be grass roots.

I will volunteer and donate money.

But it cannot be the CAP. The people you need in the air will not join and deal with that organization.

That's it in a nutshell. And CAP is too stupid, and too protective of it's ability to let ego stroking be it's main objective for membership, to ever voluntarily change it's basic operation.

Gump

The problem with the CAP is they're funded and have to justify their existence. They cannot justify if "civilians" are finding what they can't. I believe they used to pay back fuel years ago if they used volunteers.

lowflyinG3 wrote:Not formally trained in SAR myself but I feel that a guy that has local Sheriff's department aerial SAR saves documented, 13,000 hours of low altitude experience flying ag, a knowledge of that area from flying all over it for the last nine years, coming up in a Cessna 180 on wheel-skis with another 2.5 hours of fuel on board after the ferry flight could easily be told what freq to talk on and what box to fly in...........
Maybe not though.

I agree. I haven't done any SAR but I've done a fair amount of game scouting and searching for lost cattle. I know it is not the same but I tend to think that most of us here spend more time looking at the ground while flying than the CAP guys do. It takes some experience to get good at spotting things from an airplane.

G3, how'd you get in on SAR with your local Sheriff? I'd like to do that here but I'd bet the local sheriff wouldn't allow it. I wanted to join the Bonneville Country SAR team but the rules and requirements were insane for a volunteer organization.

M6RV6 wrote:Not that it makes any differance, but I think 2 helo's and 3 fixed wings in that amount of area sure could use some help??

That might be the right amount of aircraft for a 10 mile radius (314 square mile) search area.

I'm not sure what his flight plan was but if it was IFR he might have used the DNJ vortac. Is there anything stopping someone from looking north of the TFR? Say between Warren and Big Creek? Besides the weather and the below zero temperatures...

Cary wrote:

I think you'd be surprised how many people are always monitoring guard...primarily airline pilots.

Exactly what I said, right?

Cary

Misread your post. Sorry!

As far as training, I'd say someone that spends a lot of time in that area with a stol plane is more trained and useful for this mission than the guy building time in the glass panel CAP skylane. I know how hard it is flying hunters around in mine at 100 mph, making sure not to get in a tight spot, compared to a super cub that can mush along at 50 mph and then climb out of a box canyon. But I can see why they wouldn't want more to deal with, most CAP pilots I know can barely fly, why ask them to avoid other aircraft at the same time? Having an army of volunteers on the ground shouldn't hurt anything, they might luck onto the plane. Would 500 people hiking a 5 mile radius around the area be too many? CAP needs a re-boot.

Whee,
We are friends so I usually get in on it when he calls me in a big hurry already headed to the airport asking me if I can donate some time to the community, lol.
No big official cluster, just simple SAR. Person lost, exhausted all ground assets, sun headed toward setting, can I go for an hour or two before it gets dark. Found two stuck in a truck in snow once, and chased a crack head out of a corn field with an IR camera. Look for occasional corn field grow site as well.
Not often, but happy to share my talent for the betterment of the community.
G-

Had a secondary thought about how I would treat this if it was one of my friends and their family out there for more than 24 hours. Not sure what to think about that.

Nosedragger wrote:As far as training, I'd say someone that spends a lot of time in that area with a stol plane is more trained and useful for this mission than the guy building time in the glass panel CAP skylane. I know how hard it is flying hunters around in mine at 100 mph, making sure not to get in a tight spot, compared to a super cub that can mush along at 50 mph and then climb out of a box canyon. But I can see why they wouldn't want more to deal with, most CAP pilots I know can barely fly, why ask them to avoid other aircraft at the same time? Having an army of volunteers on the ground shouldn't hurt anything, they might luck onto the plane. Would 500 people hiking a 5 mile radius around the area be too many? CAP needs a re-boot.

The local CAP plane was over there with their new FLIR set up... No joy is what I am told. Judging from the reports from ATC, the plane went straight in and is probably stuffed tightly in the ground... That last couple of radar return hits should narrow down the search area alot. If by luck they were able to pull out and get somewhat level then the crash site is sitting on a ridge, or within 50 feet of the top of the ridge White plane too, gonna be VERY hard to see and it has been so long since the crash any heat signature for the flir to work has passed. It also has been damn cold to and the remains will not decompose and give off heat either. Was -21F here... same as over where nosedragger lives...

At this stage they need to start looking for animal tracks and circling birds to find the wreckage to ease the next of kins mind and soul..ASAP... as another storm is headed in.... This will probably turn out to be a late spring / summer find.. Sad deal for sure

Godspeed to those aboard that plane.

I think the guy at IDA is Dan. Acknowledged it is primarily a recovery mission at this time. Interestingly there is also a private heli involved in addition to the blackhawks? Invited to call back after the weekend to continue recovery as search will wind down.

CAP: Searches are to be done at 1,000 AGL. Useless in my mind, unless you are searching the cornfields of Iowa or simply doing an initial route search.
Problems: CAP is a large organization with a wide range of pilot capabilities. You can't safely and consistently send a 250 hour pilot off to do a route search at 250 feet without increasing the chances of loss of a search aircraft. "YOU" people raise holy hell when the "idiot" of a CAP plane hits a wire and crashes while low flying in eastern Idaho/Western wyoming, or a CAP Beaver flips while practicing float ops, or for that matter, when a C-17 crashes while pushing the limits of its flight envelope while practicing for an airshow. God help the CAP pilot who dings an aircraft flying off an unpaved strip; THEN you scratch your head and wonder why the military fly-byes are done at such a high altitude over the stadiums, the airshow performances are toned down, OR why a government funded organization like CAP won't let it's pilots operate off unpaved strips, go out in marginal weather, fly low over search areas or risk collision with non-participant search aircraft. Shit happens and historically the pilot community has been just as critical as the general public, essentially cutting our own throats in many examples.

There have been many folks in CAP, I know of who are "get it done" sort of pilots. However, in our region, about 4-5 years ago this number was trimmed during a Regional safety stand down evaluation period. Every pilot had a mandatory recertification with a check airman who was brought in from outside the region. Everything was to be by the book. For many of the capable, experienced pilots, this was the last straw and made the whole ordeal of CAP not worth the pain. I was given grief for teaching canyon turns on checkrides as I couldn't show where this was included in any list of flight maneuvers. It was viewed a potentially encouraging pilots to push their safety limits. Trying to improve CAP capability from within loses its luster when there are recurrent inquiries from higher ups. "There was some concerns that you didn't have 1,000 feet of clearance when you were crossing ridges" "How long were you below 1,000 feet?"
Result: You end up with a cadre of low risk-assessment minded, pavement pilots who know all the regs and fly at 1,000 AGL on searches, bringing back your government paid-for planes unscratched - just like you asked for.
Rants are fun!

Whee, call up your local sheriff's office and inquire. Some county's have active SAR programs who would love to have the resource and some wouldn't know what to do with you. Can't hurt to call neighboring counties as well...

STOL wrote
With that said I am going to get severe feedback on this observation but................ My gut feeling is there is a huge LDS connection /angle playing out on this crash...... Funny how "they" can mobilze a few hundred people and post a TFR, but most other crashes get a couple of searchers and small blurb in the local paper... IMHO....

Flame suit on.......

You are a genius ,we should all become Mormons and when we crash we will get special service.
Seriously , my prayers go out to them and there family. We picked an unforgiving thing to Love. Even with flight following , talking to salt lake , and a flight plan, there is no gurantee of safety.

GRIM, one more reason for a GPS tracking device. I pray for the best out come for all, what ever that turns out to be.

Blown56 wrote:STOL wrote
With that said I am going to get severe feedback on this observation but................ My gut feeling is there is a huge LDS connection /angle playing out on this crash...... Funny how "they" can mobilze a few hundred people and post a TFR, but most other crashes get a couple of searchers and small blurb in the local paper... IMHO....

Flame suit on.......

You are a genius ,we should all become Mormons and when we crash we will get special service.
Seriously , my prayers go out to them and there family. We picked an unforgiving thing to Love. Even with flight following , talking to salt lake , and a flight plan, there is no gurantee of safety.

really?????? are you guys for real???? I'm not a Mormon but I think that's going a bit far... and waaaay out there...

Blown56 wrote:
STOL wrote
With that said I am going to get severe feedback on this observation but................ My gut feeling is there is a huge LDS connection /angle playing out on this crash...... Funny how "they" can mobilze a few hundred people and post a TFR, but most other crashes get a couple of searchers and small blurb in the local paper... IMHO....

Flame suit on.......

You are a genius ,we should all become Mormons and when we crash we will get special service.
Seriously , my prayers go out to them and there family. We picked an unforgiving thing to Love. Even with flight following , talking to salt lake , and a flight plan, there is no gurantee of safety.
really?????? are you guys for real???? I'm not a Mormon but I think that's going a bit far... and waaaay out there..
Iceman
I am LDS and and am pointing out how silly it sounds to attack someones religion at a time like this.
If I had saltlake on the radio and had engine failure ,and they had a radar fix . I feel it would be a priority even if I were a atheist.
Cheers

whee wrote:

lowflyinG3 wrote:Not formally trained in SAR myself but I feel that a guy that has local Sheriff's department aerial SAR saves documented, 13,000 hours of low altitude experience flying ag, a knowledge of that area from flying all over it for the last nine years, coming up in a Cessna 180 on wheel-skis with another 2.5 hours of fuel on board after the ferry flight could easily be told what freq to talk on and what box to fly in...........
Maybe not though.

I agree. I haven't done any SAR but I've done a fair amount of game scouting and searching for lost cattle. I know it is not the same but I tend to think that most of us here spend more time looking at the ground while flying than the CAP guys do. It takes some experience to get good at spotting things from an airplane.

G3, how'd you get in on SAR with your local Sheriff? I'd like to do that here but I'd bet the local sheriff wouldn't allow it. I wanted to join the Bonneville Country SAR team but the rules and requirements were insane for a volunteer organization.

I had a (brief) conversation with the Bannock County sheriff a few years back on the same subject, it quickly turned into a discussion on liability insurance and that was that. Meanwhile they just bought a 3/4 million dollar SWAT vehicle, because the old Army surplus one lacked an adequate heater.

As a non Mormon in a area mostly such, I can attest that when it comes to making things happen/calling out the troops, my hat is off to them. They have a pre-existing organisation all set up to deal with "crap" They don't care if you're on their team either, they will get it done, and many times here locally I've seen them helping out heathens, like me , in an emergency, both short term and long term. After 35 years of living among them, I have realized that in a pinch you will be damn glad to have some for neighbors when the shit hits the fan (told you I'm a heathen). It wouldn't surprise me at all if an LDS group found the crash site first, they can really call out the man/women power like no other group here in Idaho. Did I say I'm a heathen?

The Mormons like to live clean ( most ) it makes them predictable and in contrast more wealthy and organized. I admire that.