motoadve wrote:Have been practising a lot.
Short landings are consistent now and smooth, did 6 in a row 600ft (this one is with a shallow hill before final)
Did a couple yesterday in a narrow grass field with a nice approach.
I came at 55mph IAS, reducing power for altitude and pitch for speed, what I get is when I reduce power to loose altitude the nose drop and I gain a bit of speed so when I approach at 55mph I end up at 60mph doing the flare.
Landings are very smooth but could be shorter.

Whats the trick to loose alt but keep the same speed?I tried to pull the yoke and what happens is airspeed is reduced and alt maintained.

It sounds as If you have finally got on track to what most of us were simply trying to explain to you. Remember to keep things simple. The side slip is the most regarded and effective manner in which you can lose/adjust altitude. As your glide path changes make minor adjustments as needed in your push towards where you want to land. Kick out with rudder to straight and level before flare. Make adjustments to pitch trim wheel as needed, then flare, flare, flare. You can fly the side-slip right above stall speed, then dial in nose high pitch trim, so as when you flare the nose is already high and ready to set down firmly.

This is what I was responding to

Be stabilised and then you can adjust speed to hit your mark

I thought adjusting speed meant changing it.
Gary

Oh, I see. What I meant by that was if your pitch, speed and angle are all changing then you have no chance. You have to make one a constant so then you can control the flight by adjusting the other.

I'm saying to make the the glide path constant, pitch for speed and make adjustments to glidepath with power. With that in mind use the advise I gave above and with practice you can hit your mark every time.

By the way, for steep approaches they are only needed if you have to clear an obstical. (power lines, trees, etc). If it's JUST a short field then fly the 3 degree.

Once more...stabilized is the key to the whole thing. Constant speed, constant decent, constant pitch, constant aiming point in the SAME position on the wind screen.

Do what I say and you'll hit your mark every time. Keep in mind weight, temp, and wind and you'll be greasing it on at the point you want every time.




...Edited because I posted last night after "a few" and mis-spoke.

Hey Glass. What happens when the engine pukes on a 3 degree approach? Trim

Trimtab wrote:Hey Glass. What happens when the engine pukes on a 3 degree approach? Trim

Same thing as when it pukes as your passing the numbers on takeoff. If you're that worried about it then I'd suggest a multi-engine airplane.

VASI's, PAPI's and LOC GP's are all set to 3 degrees by default (yes there are some that are steeper). Do you not follow these aids? I think most pilots do. If you want to come in on a flight idle space shuttle approach to guard against possible engine failure then that's your deal. I don't advocate it.

GlassPilot wrote:Oh, I see. What I meant by that was if your pitch, speed and angle are all changing then you have no chance. You have to make one a constant so then you can control the flight by adjusting the other.

I'm saying to make the the glide path constant, pitch for speed and make adjustments to glidepath with power. With that in mind use the advise I gave above and with practice you can hit your mark every time.

By the way, for steep approaches they are only needed if you have to clear an obstical. (power lines, trees, etc). If it's JUST a short field then fly the 3 degree.

Once more...stabilized is the key to the whole thing. Constant speed, constant decent, constant pitch, constant aiming point in the SAME position on the wind screen.

Do what I say and you'll hit your mark every time. Keep in mind weight, temp, and wind and you'll be greasing it on at the point you want every time.




...Edited because I posted last night after "a few" and mis-spoke.

geez do I do all that when I land???? didn't think it was that complicated

I can't imagine ANY logic to flying a 3 degree glideslope in a little airplane EXCEPT on an instrument approach, where you don't have much choice.

In a jet or twin, that advice is fine.

I HAVE had engine failures, and yes, during takeoff you are exposed to potential. There, you have no choice. During a landing approach, you DO have a choice. Besides, dragging an airplane in and hitting a spot is easy, using power as a crutch. Now, go to the Idaho backcountry, and try one of those to ANY of the strips there.....won't happen.

You don't need to make a "space shuttle" glide path either, but there are lots of reasons to fly a steeper approach than 3 degrees, IN LITTLE AIRPLANES. If you NEED a PAPI/VASI/PLASI to provide glide slope information in a little airplane, you need to go back to a good instructor and learn how to fly approaches. Glide slope indicators in these airplanes are a crutch, and designed primarily for large aircraft and instrument operations.

MTV

yeah as I was reading the posts all I could think of was" three degree approach at Wilson Bar , or Vines???? Or most of the other strips I've been into up there...OH I don't know,,,, I just pick a spot in the dirt and put it there as the little red light comes on.......seems to work out pretty good....

Seems to me that an approach with any power is going to get steeper if the engine quits. I'd even guess that an approach at idle power would get somewhat steeper if the engine quits. My thesis for this is whenever I walk behind a light piston on the ramp I feel a breeze as I pass directly behind the plane sitting there at idle power. I'm thinking this "breeze" would equal some form of thrust (albeit very small) whilst descending for landing.

That being said, if you are straight in at idle thrust and are on glide to hit the numbers, wouldn't you then miss the numbers and land short if the engine quit, resulting in a loss of some power? How can you stretch the glide to make up for that loss of thrust?

Even if you consider a traffic pattern, at some point you have to be on final and if the engine quits at that point you're going to miss the runway. Food for thought.

Ever hear of a slip? How about flaps?

Fly tight patterns.

Again, go to the Idaho back country, look for PAPIs....fly a "bomber pattern". Let us know how that works for you.

Your point appears to be that an aircraft will at SOME time be in a position from which you cannot safely glide to the airport. Nobody is arguing that point, but that point alone should not then suggest that we should all fly around without any concern for engine failure.

I am not suggesting that one should be able to land on the runway from everywhere one flys......

What I AM suggesting (again) is that a 3 degree glide slope is NOT appropriate for most light general aviation aircraft. That's not the target audience for which it was chosen for instrument approaches, which, by the way, is specifically why there are approach lighting systems at airports, NOT for use in VFR weather.

My point is that a pilot should possess the skills to be able to fly an approach at whatever approach angle the situation dictates, and not be a slave to a collection of lights which aren't even installed at about 95% of the places I land.

MTV

I appreciate your point about minimising the time spent outside of gliding distance, I do.

The title of this thread is "Short Field Landing" and my point is to try and eliminate as many variables as possible. If you are flying 95% of your approaches steeper than 3 degrees then by all means stick with that. I strongly feel that consistency is the key to hitting your mark (spot landing).

I fly all my approaches (many without visual aids too) at 3 degree unless I need more for some definable reason, like trees or wires or buildings or whatever. I go to some crazy small places too. I just said that and realise how silly that sounds here as ALL my runways are at least paved! Well, they are crazy small from the viewpoint of my colleagues at my present and former employers.

Anyway, the whole 3 degree thing was just a tangent and not really the point. The point was to be stabilised and be consistent on every approach. By eliminating as many variables as possible you can then focus on one thing to hit your mark.

Fly safe (and steep too if you want),
GP

VASI's, PAPI's and LOC GP's are all set to 3 degrees by default (yes there are some that are steeper). Do you not follow these aids?

I've never seen one of them fancy light doohickys on any of the short field or back country strips I've ever been too.
The hole point of the short, back country landing is you dont have these aids and have to get proficient at see runway and land.
Every back country strip has a different approach as well as departure. This means you need the skills to be flexible to the situation.
Its not IFR, its seat of the pants and the more different types of approaches that are in your bag the better. and it all takes practice.
When I fly IFR I'm on the glide slope. when I,m in my airplane 8 to 9 landings out of 10 are short field practice landings.
So leave the big city lights behind and lets go find a sweet little strip out in Gods country and go campin.

An airplane is an airplane, and an airstrip is an airstrip. They are all pretty much the same no matter what or where you fly. There are arguably a few minor differences between JFK and Vines, but really not very much. I think the point Glasspilot is trying to make, is that the stabilized approach is the easiest type of approach to fly, and it works every time! That's why the FAA, airlines, military, backcountry instructors in McCall, all teach it that way. It's tried and proven, so why try and invent some new way? Although I prefer a slightly steeper approach (maybe 4 degrees) than Glasspilot, 3 degrees will work at virtually all runways too. 3 degrees will certainly will work at 95 percent of all the strips in the Idaho backcoutry. Vines might be the one exception I can think of due to trees (ie 50 foot obstacle) on short approach there.

The bottom line is I fly ALL of my approaches basically the same, no matter where I am landing or what I am flying. It's worked for me for 30+ years!

Tom

Same runway practice as my other videos.
Im learning and practicing so critics are welcomed.

Hitting mark: plus

Stopping while exiting the runway SHORT of the hold line: minus

Not sure if it was towered or not but it doesn't really matter. Cross the line and then call ground, or continue to taxi if uncontrolled.

There's my critique.


PS the stall horn that far out makes me cringe but that may be me and my non-BC ways. Others here would know better than I.

PPS your lining up a bit left of the centerline. Not a lot, but a bit. It's like altitude, if you can hold 5,450 for 20 minuets straight then you can hold 5,500 just as easy. It's common for guys sitting on the left seat to line up left and right seat line up right. There's no need to off set for the two feet off aircraft centerline when you're a mile out. Just center yourself on the centerline and the plane will be in the right spot.


Okay, that was a lot. It's all pretty minor but none the less, you asked for criticism.

I always land to the left of the runway, is there a trick to get the center every time?
Stall horn goes off about 7 or 8 mph before the stall.

Dont want to sound condescending but my trick is to aim for the center line and stick to it... its proper aviation marksmanship! you have to do it or else you will regret it some day...tight strip or bad gust/xwind.. the only time I dont land in the center is to avoid last minute animals, creek or mostly for xwinds...if its from from port then I'll land a little left so to give me a slight safety margin towards starboard.. be hard on yourself, you will become proficient and build confidence and people will want to go flying with you...I know if I see someone landing crooked or off center line on a good day, It leaves a bad taste in my mind... if you're sloppy on landing, who knows where else you're sloppy...slow flight, mountaing flying, taxiing in the winds (on tailwheel), maintenance, etc. Aviation seldomly forgives when mistakes are made, unfortunately those who experienced this cant tell you anymore... Do circuits and more circuits and then do one more... to each their own mentality but I like to train not so sunny days so that I build skills and confidence for when "sh*t" happens. My 2 cents, I'm sure more will give theirs too! BCT

motoadve wrote:I always land to the left of the runway, is there a trick to get the center every time?
Stall horn goes off about 7 or 8 mph before the stall.

Try to imagine the runway is a building (a tall sky scrapper). Keep it symmetrical.

If it looks like the building is leaning left then you are left of centreline...even a tiny bit.
If it looks like it's leaning right then you are right of centreline.


Make it stand perfectly straight up and DON'T compensate for sitting on the left side of the plane. If it's leaning a little or a lot, correct until it doesn't. With practice you'll be flying right down the centreline with changing crosswind components and not even be thinking about it.

gp

What mtv said.Most of the strips here in the northeast have the 50ft trees at the ends.I don't mean public airports.I am talking some guys backyard with 1200 feet of sometimes not too flat.If you want a stabilised approach there you can arrive on final at 500ft agl about a 1000ft out and put ALL the rudder and aileron in and hold that to about 20ft off and then flare.Oh and don't be fast,at all.If you happen to have a Garmin gps with voice it will be screaming "SINK RATE" in your headset all the way down.
All my normal landings are power off from abeam my intended touchdown point if I am flying a regular pattern.If I have to add power before touchdown then I screwed up.
I like staying in close and bleeding off altitude with slipping.I do it regularly on downwind and base when needed to adjust my glidepath.
To me a stabilized approach means flying the airplane all the time and being able to fly it to it's limits safely.

Bill

motoadve wrote:I always land to the left of the runway, is there a trick to get the center every time?
Stall horn goes off about 7 or 8 mph before the stall.

I used to have problems with always landing left of center line also. What worked for me was to find a spot on the dash or windshield and use it as a gunsight to line up on centerline. For example in a Pacer if I keep a certain rivet on the left side of the dash lined on the extended centerline- on the white line everytime.

And my instructor always said there are no runways or taxiways, just centerlines.