Backcountry Pilot • ADS-B out!!??

ADS-B out!!??

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Re: ADS-B out!!??

hotrod180 wrote:I'm curious as to why each ADS-B out device has to be indentified/matched to a particular airplane.
We'll still have to squawk a code on our txpr's when we're in controlled airspace- "they" shouldn't need any more identification than that. The airplane ID thing does smack of big brotherism.


"Ours not to reason why, ours but to do or die." Tennyson--The Charge of the Light Brigade.

There are a lot of requirements for which it's hard to understand why they exist. Some government minion working in a windowless cubicle thinks xyz is a good idea, nobody complains when the regulations are proposed, so xyz becomes part of the requirements. Seriously. It's not just the FAA; government agencies at all levels do that. Then you and I have to abide by those requirements, and if we ask "why?", the answer is, "because it's in the regulations." It doesn't have to make sense.

In this case, part of the reason it ended up in the regs is because of ICAO requirements. But that begs the question, why the ICAO requirements? I suspect it has to do with aircraft used in international travel, specifically Europe, so that they can be compliant with the requirements of each country's individual FAA equivalent. I guess we should be thankful that the ADS-B Out requirements aren't more onerous. When you consider some of the totalitarian way many other countries are run, it could be so much worse.

This quote explains ICAO a bit better:

The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) is a UN specialized agency, established by States in 1944 to manage the administration and governance of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (Chicago Convention).

ICAO works with the Convention’s 191 Member States and industry groups to reach consensus on international civil aviation Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs) and policies in support of a safe, efficient, secure, economically sustainable and environmentally responsible civil aviation sector. These SARPs and policies are used by ICAO Member States to ensure that their local civil aviation operations and regulations conform to global norms, which in turn permits more than 100,000 daily flights in aviation’s global network to operate safely and reliably in every region of the world.

In addition to its core work resolving consensus-driven international SARPs and policies among its Member States and industry, and among many other priorities and programmes, ICAO also coordinates assistance and capacity building for States in support of numerous aviation development objectives; produces global plans to coordinate multilateral strategic progress for safety and air navigation; monitors and reports on numerous air transport sector performance metrics; and audits States’ civil aviation oversight capabilities in the areas of safety and security.


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Re: ADS-B out!!??

The most honest technical reason I can envision is to remove the ambiguity if you have multiple signals received for the same plane. Situations can occur where due to terrain or multple transmitters in close proximity to each other are received and if there is no unique identifier they might be preceived as the same plane.

Do you use a cell phone? You do realize you have a unique IMEI identifier in there - so you've been watched by big brother likely for decades now. Your car also has a VIN number and a license plate. Not really different or nefarious in my book.
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Re: ADS-B out!!??

soyAnarchisto wrote:The most honest technical reason I can envision is to remove the ambiguity if you have multiple signals received for the same plane. Situations can occur where due to terrain or multple transmitters in close proximity to each other are received and if there is no unique identifier they might be preceived as the same plane.

Do you use a cell phone? You do realize you have a unique IMEI identifier in there - so you've been watched by big brother likely for decades now. Your car also has a VIN number and a license plate. Not really different or nefarious in my book.


So why is there such a big thing to have 2" #s on an ol bird? Maybe why some pull the battery out of there cell phone!! :mrgreen:
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Re: ADS-B out!!??

soyAnarchisto wrote:Do you use a cell phone? You do realize you have a unique IMEI identifier in there - so you've been watched by big brother likely for decades now. Your car also has a VIN number and a license plate. Not really different or nefarious in my book.


VIN's and license plates are like aircraft data plates and registration numbers. They do not allow someone to sit in his/her office and watch your every move.

Yes, you can be tracked by your cell phone. However, that data is theoretically only available to big brother once they show cause (yes, I know wishful thinking). The problem with ADS-B out is that the data is available for anyone to comb through and decide to target an aircraft for harassment. That "someone" can be anyone from the CBP deciding that it looks like you are avoiding controlled airspace and meeting you on the ramp, disassembling your airplane, etc to your crazy ex watching you on FlightRadar24 in order to unleash more crazy.
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Re: ADS-B out!!??

I think the more likely issue is going to be user fees. The feds (specifically some lawmakers) have been itching to enact user fees for years. Once they can identify everyone individually, it becomes easier to levy taxes...
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Re: ADS-B out!!??

Live2aviate wrote:I think the more likely issue is going to be user fees. The feds (specifically some lawmakers) have been itching to enact user fees for years. Once they can identify everyone individually, it becomes easier to levy taxes...


While that's a possibility, the counter argument is "You, FAA, mandated that nearly everyone spend all sorts of money to equip their airplanes with ADS-B Out, you said that the ADS-B system would save the FAA all sorts of money because periodic maintenance of ground facilities would be reduced by mega-bucks and that it would take fewer people to operate the system, so with all that savings and the expense you already put on owners, you need to continue to provide free ATC services from now until hell freezes over."

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Re: ADS-B out!!??

You still don't "have" to have ads-b. Only if you want to fly in certain air space.


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Re: ADS-B out!!??

88Echo wrote:You still don't "have" to have ads-b. Only if you want to fly in certain air space.


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...which covers substantially most of the US. If you need a transponder now, you'll need ADS-B Out by January 1, 2020, only 40 months from now.

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Re: ADS-B out!!??

Cary wrote:
88Echo wrote:You still don't "have" to have ads-b. Only if you want to fly in certain air space.


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...which covers substantially most of the US. If you need a transponder now, you'll need ADS-B Out by January 1, 2020, only 40 months from now.

Cary


Sorry. We only need them to fly in and out of anc



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Re: ADS-B out!!??

88Echo wrote:
Cary wrote:
88Echo wrote:You still don't "have" to have ads-b. Only if you want to fly in certain air space.


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...which covers substantially most of the US. If you need a transponder now, you'll need ADS-B Out by January 1, 2020, only 40 months from now.

Cary


Sorry. We only need them to fly in and out of anc



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True--Anchorage is the only Class C airport in Alaska. However, other regs require that if your airplane has an operating transponder, it must be used in all airspace except Class G airspace, as has been discussed.

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Re: ADS-B out!!??

My T210 once had two transponders. What if one was ADS-B, and one was mode A. I could choose which to operate when outside of controlled airspace?
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Re: ADS-B out!!??

88Echo wrote:You still don't "have" to have ads-b. Only if you want to fly in certain air space.


I agree. I could legally get by without ADS-B, if I was willing to:
1) stay out of class A airspace (never been in it) & class B airspace (haven't been in it in 20 years). No problem.
2) stay out of class C airspace, which would be inconvenient but not impossible.
3) stay out of the 30NM mode C veils of which Seattle has one. This would be even more inconvenient and would prevent me from going some of the places where I sometimes go, but in the short term anyway would be doable.

The ADS-B thing mainly seems to be for airliner traffic's benefit anyway, I wish they'd just require it in A & B airspace which I could live with very easily.
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Re: ADS-B out!!??

Pinecone wrote:My T210 once had two transponders. What if one was ADS-B, and one was mode A. I could choose which to operate when outside of controlled airspace?


Not as I read the reg, but I'm not the final arbiter. As I read the reg, if you have it and it is operable, you have to use it--same basic rule for both a transponder and ADS-B Out.

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