Back to Bill Bainbridge and B&C....

There were a bunch of us who watched Bill get shafted by the FAA back in the '90's. Absolute govt witch hunt and FAA lawyers run amuck. It had the IRS lawyers walking around with full erections and taking notes for their own use seeing how Bill was being screwed. But, he fought back, kept his cool, and in the end the then FAA administrator, Jane Garvey, ended up giving him a personal apology. Kind of.

http://www.avweb.com/news/atis/184432-1 ... directed=1

First class products, genius smart, and genuine nice guy.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Back to Bill Bainbridge and B&C....

There were a bunch of us who watched Bill get shafted by the FAA back in the '90's. Absolute govt witch hunt and FAA lawyers run amuck. It had the IRS lawyers walking around with full erections and taking notes for their own use seeing how Bill was being screwed. But, he fought back, kept his cool, and in the end the then FAA administrator, Jane Garvey, ended up giving him a personal apology. Kind of.

http://www.avweb.com/news/atis/184432-1 ... directed=1

First class products, genius smart, and genuine nice guy.

Gump

Holy shit. That was very well written. Kudos to Mike Busch.

Interesting how here in Honolulu some guys are at war with the FAA and others just seem to get what they need. Pretty much has to do with money. Guys with $ never have an issue. Welcome to the United States of Capitalism. It is not fair but I understand who controls "what" I do and then have fun flying not jacking with the system. I am not rich so I do not pick a fight with anyone. Much more fun flying, surfing ... being "middle class" is not that bad. I know billionaires that have legal bills in the range of $100,000.00s per month. But, when theses guys make 10M /mo no big deal. Lawyers are just another form of entertainment. A parking ticket could mess up my weekly budget. So I lay low and take a hit now and then but, turn the other cheek.

In Honolulu, Kona, Maui and Lanai we have private jets ranging from 747's (yes Boeing has confirmed at least 10 private 747s delivered to private customers) to old Citations. Kona is littered with 50 or more Jet's on certain days.

On the other end of the scale we have guys trying to fly thrashed 172's in flight schools. They are not even able to pay rent at times. Now, guess who is fighting the FAA, the State of Hawaii and among each other?

SA Maule wrote:Even in a backwater like South Africa these lawyers would have had the asses Han

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Thanks for the information, everyone. Now I guess it's evil empire FAA-stroke-a-thon time.

I am also a huge fan of B&C; absolute class act. I have an external regulator and gear driven (Rotax 912 accessory pad gear option) alternator from them, along with all the wire and connectors for my project.

In addition, you may already be aware of Bob Nuckolls, who is associated with B&C, and participates in the Aeroelectric-list on the Matronics list server:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3

I research all my electrical architectural questions there. In addition, Bob has published an open source distillation of a lifetime in the business.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/

Here are a couple of articles from there that convinced me an external alternator (experimental aircraft) was the right choice for my project:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Al ... ilures.pdf

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Ph ... tinreg.pdf

Finally, Bob used to hold on-site training's for groups around the US. I went to one years ago, and it was a real eye opener, fun, and helped me understand the value of simple, fault tolerant design, devoid of un-needed bells and whistles. If the opportunity presents, I suggest checking it out.

In the end, there is no one right way to design this stuff: both internal and external have their advantages and risks. As the airplane designer we get to choose. Bob taught me to be able to defend my choice using provable science and established research.

That is what stuck with me.

-Jim

M3X wrote:I am also a huge fan of B&C; absolute class act. I have an external regulator and gear driven (Rotax 912 accessory pad gear option) alternator from them, along with all the wire and connectors for my project.

In addition, you may already be aware of Bob Nuckolls, who is associated with B&C, and participates in the Aeroelectric-list on the Matronics list server:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3

I research all my electrical architectural questions there. In addition, Bob has published an open source distillation of a lifetime in the business.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/

Here are a couple of articles from there that convinced me an external alternator (experimental aircraft) was the right choice for my project:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Al ... ilures.pdf

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Ph ... tinreg.pdf

Finally, Bob used to hold on-site training's for groups around the US. I went to one years ago, and it was a real eye opener, fun, and helped me understand the value of simple, fault tolerant design, devoid of un-needed bells and whistles. If the opportunity presents, I suggest checking it out.

In the end, there is no one right way to design this stuff: both internal and external have their advantages and risks. As the airplane designer we get to choose. Bob taught me to be able to defend my choice using provable science and established research.

That is what stuck with me.

-Jim

Being open source is great too. I would consider switching from my current alt/regulator configuration to B&C.

One additional point regarding B&C regulators: they are linear, not switching, which means way quieter on the radio systems (intercom), both in transmit and receive.

As our entire (audio) radio world revolves around Amplitude Modulation (AM) noise is always a problem best attacked through proper grounding, shielding and finally quiet -everything- in the plane.

Something the certified world understood and embraced 75 years ago; there is a method to the madness of the old school regulators that overheat, wear out....and are very quiet

-Jim

When I get to build my Bearhawk I plan to use an automotive GM 3-wire alternator. They are reliable, inexpensive and when it fails in Podunk, USA the local parts house will likely have a replacement. They have a built in voltage regulator and are dead simple to wire. $150 for a lifetime guaranteed unit and never have to pay for another one again. My 2002 GMC Dmax has ~230,000 extremely hard miles on it and according to the very complete maintenance records the alternator has never been replaced. My jet boat also has a GM 3-wire alternator mounted to the Ford 315W and while I don't know how many hours the alternator had on it when I put the boat together I put ~30 trouble free hours on it this summer.

That being said, I plan to install all steam gauges and only a digital EGT/CHT monitor so an alternator failure will not be a big deal; not that I think failure risk is any higher with a GM 3-wire. I could see the desire for airplane specific system if you were going with a glass panel. Even then I'd probably just install dual GM 3-wire alternators driven off separate belts.

Mike Busch's webinar "All About Alternators" is pretty good. I don't usually watch them I just play them like a podcast my iphone.

Vibration is what takes them out. If you have a good mount setup, both engine and alternator, your life will be much easier when it comes to keeping the battery charged.

I just read the linked letter by Mike Busch to former Administrator Garvey. In case anyone is thinking that out of control prosecutions (or persecutions) occur only at the federal level, be assured that it happens at all levels of government. Many government lawyers have never practiced law in the private sector, so that they have no idea what it's like to tell their clients,
"Look, this case is going to be expensive. Even if I give you a break and only charge you for some of my time, you're looking at $20K on up. It'll not only cost you a lot in money, but it will take over your life. You'll wake up at 2 in the morning, thinking about it. Your wife will wonder who you've become. Your business will suffer, because you can only concentrate on this damn lawsuit. And believe me, you must concentrate on this lawsuit, because only you can provide the information I'll need to defend you."

Those few government lawyers who have practiced in the private sector often have been members of large firms with wealthy clients--not the Ma & Pa type of clients who have a small business which barely makes enough to meet its monthly bills. Or alternatively, they are fresh out of the box lawyers whose private sector experience is limited to flipping burgers at Burger King while they were in law school. Neither has any relevant experience in dealing with the realities of running a really small business.

I have no idea whether there has been a change in the "take no prisoners" approach of the Chief Counsel's office since the Bainbridge situation came to light, but even if Administrator Garvey took steps to stop the abuse, that's no guarantee that it couldn't or hasn't arisen again. It's an endemic problem with government minions who are too often isolated and insulated from reality.

So don't let your guard down, folks. It can happen to anyone.

Cary

B&C are always a pleasure to deal with, I used an internal reg alt along with all my wiring and connectors from them. Built my fuse panel with their products following Nuckols book also, all has been flawless in 300 hrs. How many companies do you talk to the owner/designer when you call for an order? Makes a difference to me.

GumpAir wrote:+1 on Bill Bainbridge.

Gump

+2 and many More -Family ties to Newton ,Kansas > Small town with Midwest Values

I went with the Planepower model AL12-EI60. I for internal regulation. I like the weight of the product and the simplicity, also the price is good.

Planepower provided good product support when I had questions, couldn't say a bad word about them.

It was super easy to install and hook up, just the excitation wire, and power cable, and a warning light.

Two or three times the regulation protection has operated in the last 250hrs, for whatever reason. Some kind of voltage / current spike I guess, or maybe something like a short. I just reset the excitation with the master switch and it keeps on going.

Battson wrote:I went with the Planepower model AL12-EI60. I for internal regulation. I like the weight of the product and the simplicity, also the price is good.

Planepower provided good product support when I had questions, couldn't say a bad word about them.

It was super easy to install and hook up, just the excitation wire, and power cable, and a warning light.

Two or three times the regulation protection has operated in the last 250hrs, for whatever reason. Some kind of voltage / current spike I guess, or maybe something like a short. I just reset the excitation with the master switch and it keeps on going.

The brushes/diodes maybe prematurely wearing out, I had similar symptoms. It happened to me at 275HR. PP = BS. They are friendly on the telephone last time I called which I do not dispute.

Yep, old thread. Looking at upgrading my old alternator, my basis of certification is CAM 4a, only talks about generators meeting a load requirement. A billion automobiles and 10,000’s of homebuilts do fine with internally regulated like the AL12-EI60, and I’ve heard of Super Cub guys getting it on a field approval. Can someone point me to the regulatory reference restricting what I can install?

Karmutzen wrote:Yep, old thread. Looking at upgrading my old alternator, my basis of certification is CAM 4a, only talks about generators meeting a load requirement. A billion automobiles and 10,000’s of homebuilts do fine with internally regulated like the AL12-EI60, and I’ve heard of Super Cub guys getting it on a field approval. Can someone point me to the regulatory reference restricting what I can install?

Is this on a Canadian plane?

Installed a both a B&C alternator and starter this Winter; very happy with the outcome, it's very clean, tidy and much lighter overall