Darinh wrote:Never had an issue with the 80hp an DA. Obviously I would have loved to have the 100 hp but it wasn't needed in that airplane. Flew it out of our cabin stip, fish lake, and many other high DA strips. There were plenty of days here in OGD where the DA at my home airport approached 10k' and ground roll was still under 500'.

Impressive. I wouldn't mind trying an 80-hp version based on that recommendation. Did yours have flaperons? If so, what did you think of them? (sorry if this is thread drift, but I'm curious and I figure it might indirectly assist the OP in his quest)

My 7 had the 914 Rotax (turbo charged) so it went like a rocket pretty much all the time... very fun airplane.

I can't wait to try a turboed S-7 (i.e., I'm mighty jealous of your rocket)! Unfortunately, that mod don't come cheap either.

Straight tail 182. Great performance, mogas if you can find it. Spend 35-40k on a good ship, save the rest of your cabbage for upgrades and maintenance and go fly the wings off it.

Two whole pages and nobody said the Golden words yet....????

Just buy a Maule!

Cheap to buy, cheaper to maintain. Loads of performance, great in the mountains. No problemo.

Cessna et al may seem attractively cheap to buy used, but the parts costs always make me

If 60K is in your range then the Rans S-7 should be on your short list. Easy to find one in the 50's. The stock gear is fine with Airstreaks as long as you aren't looking to land on big rocks or freshly plowed fields. I'm sure that I will eventually put Robert's gear on mine but for now my is fine for any of the strips within a couple of hundred miles of here that I would care to drop in on. The 100 horse Rotax hauls my fat butt around without complaint and it does it under 4 GPH. Mark at Rocky Mountian Kitplanes has a really nice one on his site for sale in your range.

The effort to compare buying a plane like the 182 or a LSA type is like paying more bucks upfront for a brand new Prius and then pretty much reducing your gas bill to zero or at least close to it, or a older pickup truck or maybe a big beater '80's car like a Ford Crown Victoria (my mom had one of them ). The Ford will cost you more to operate, but be a lot cheaper to buy, you can't have it both ways! She drove it 800 miles a year so that was the right choice. Like others have said, it all depends on how often you fly, hell I could afford to buy a 182, but fly it 250 hrs a year? And have to pay someone to annual it on top of that? And have to go to the airport to fly?!!! Seriously, the smaller birds that easily operate out of pea patchs means "keep it at home", no long strip and the property it sits on required. Oops, thread drift.

A turbo is NOT required for the Rans S-7 anyway, the wing is the thing, crap, more thread drift!

courierguy wrote: A turbo is NOT required for the Rans S-7 anyway, the wing is the thing!

The turbo thing is a lot like a supermodel: high initial cost, high maintenance cost, and not necessary for most applications within my skill range.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to take one for a joyride on a loaner basis (the turbo, I mean...)

The maintenance costs on the 914 are not much different than the 912 (I've owned both)... it is really the same engine with a turbo charger attached. Expensive to purchase... yes but aren't all Rotax engines expensive? Hell, any engine that is for an airplane is about 4x the price it really should be.

By the way, my 7 was a Kitfox Series 7 not an S-7 and while I agree that neither of these airplanes "need" a turbo it sure makes them a helluva lot of fun. Besides when was the last time you based an airplane purchase solely on "need"? I know virtually 0% of my aircraft purchases are based purely on the "need" part of the equation. George Happ (Owner of Matco) owns an S-7 with a 914 so there is at least one out there.

Having said all that... If I were to build another Series 7 or Rans S-7 I would go with the standard 100hp Rotax or possibly the new FI 912s. It definitely would not have the 914 purely due to cost.

By maintenance cost, I was referring to the (presumably) shorter TBO, as well as the replacement cost if the magic gerbils ever stop turning the magic wheel inside the magic thingie (my layman's understanding of a turbo assembly).

Carry on.

RanchPilot wrote:

courierguy wrote: A turbo is NOT required for the Rans S-7 anyway, the wing is the thing!

The turbo thing is a lot like a supermodel: high initial cost, high maintenance cost, and not necessary for most applications within my skill range.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to take one for a joyride on a loaner basis (the turbo, I mean...)

....

Best and most accurate post so far this year...

You should come up to BDU and have a look at my 85 hp j3c.

Give the stinsons a good look.

Very few issues, very few ad's engine parts have never been a problem for me yet.

Big club and lots still flying.

If you want to know more about them I can help let me know.

courierguy wrote:The effort to compare buying a plane like the 182 or a LSA type is like paying more bucks upfront for a brand new Prius and then pretty much reducing your gas bill to zero or at least close to it, or a older pickup truck or maybe a big beater '80's car like a Ford Crown Victoria (my mom had one of them ). The Ford will cost you more to operate, but be a lot cheaper to buy, you can't have it both ways! She drove it 800 miles a year so that was the right choice. Like others have said, it all depends on how often you fly, hell I could afford to buy a 182, but fly it 250 hrs a year? And have to pay someone to annual it on top of that? And have to go to the airport to fly?!!! Seriously, the smaller birds that easily operate out of pea patchs means "keep it at home", no long strip and the property it sits on required. Oops, thread drift.

Yes - your love of the smaller, cheap to run aircraft shows through. The 250hrs a year sounds great, as does keeping it on a smaller property. On the other hand, you do have a very specific mission in mind.

I guess the question for the OP is, would you rather fly 5 hours a week as a joyride with very little gear nor many friends on board? Or fly 5 hours a fortnight but take anything you want including 3 friends and luggage for a weekend away?
I don't know what your answer is, but I'd stuggle to find a reason to fly 5 horus a week with just me in the plane. The weather's not that good either. But I can certainly see taking friends on trips a few times a month working out really well, and 5 hours is a long trip in a plane for most.
So it all depends on your mission.

coloradokevbot wrote:I have a few hours in a 152 and during the hot summer days it eats a lot of runway and climbs very, very slowly. Lots of planes may fit your mission as long as you realize that filling all the seats is not a good idea when heading towards the high country. I've seen quite a few 170/172's and Citabrias do pretty well, just keep it light.

With Greg's C180H Madness thread in the back of my mind, I'm wondering how much weight you could pull out of an early 172. Minimal VFR instruments and modern radios - maybe a Dynon D1 to replace the gyros. Utilitarian interior and lightweight seats. Just dreamin....

Yes, buy a Maule....and, in the neighborhood

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_ ... -210C.html

soyAnarchisto wrote:You should come up to BDU and have a look at my 85 hp j3c.

That brings up a good point actually. Nobody except Whee talks about the older 2 seat airplanes much. t-cart, Champ, J3-4-5, 120/140, his Luscombe etc. Howz about some insight about those aircraft regarding not just runway length and density altitude but the ability to hit the BCP gathering with some gear on board (presumably solo).

What would a typical overhaul cost on the above mentioned Maule cost?

soyAnarchisto wrote:You should come up to BDU and have a look at my 85 hp j3c.

I definitely might take you up on that offer! I live in Arvada, so Boulder isn't all that far away anyway.

porterjet wrote:That brings up a good point actually. Nobody except Whee talks about the older 2 seat airplanes much. t-cart, Champ, J3-4-5, 120/140, his Luscombe etc. Howz about some insight about those aircraft regarding not just runway length and density altitude but the ability to hit the BCP gathering with some gear on board (presumably solo).

Agreed. I hear those mentioned from time to time, but know very little many of those makes/models. Might be interesting to hear what some of their owners have to say, since airplanes of that age generally fall into the more affordable category. I guess performance would be my biggest concern given the 5-figure density altitude readings we have out here.

soaringhiggy wrote:Give the stinsons a good look.

Very few issues, very few ad's engine parts have never been a problem for me yet.

Big club and lots still flying.

If you want to know more about them I can help let me know.

Thanks for the advice. Good to know that those airplanes are well regarded. Any idea what the TBO is for the common Franklin 165 I see in so many of these airplanes? Also, does the 165 have the power required for mountain flying with a pilot, one passenger, and a reasonable amount of gear (lets say 50-75lbs of camping gear)? I've heard that these planes are sometimes available with 200+ hp engines, and I'm wondering if I'd need to find one of those for Colorado. If the 165's are adequate, there sure seem to be a lot of them around.

nonrev wrote:Yes, buy a Maule....and, in the neighborhood

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_ ... -210C.html

You're at least the 2nd one to throw Maules onto this list, so I'll definitely have to do some reading on those airplanes as well. Incidentally, what is the TBO on these engines? I see that the one you linked me to has 1,500+ hours SMOH, and I kind of wonder how far these engines typically go, and what a rebuild typically costs. By the way, is that your airplane or just one you know of locally?

Two guys here at Del Norte (8V1) that have 90 hp PA-11's. A real kick in the butt. No problem getting up and over the mountains to go places.

The 90 hp pa-11s and the 85 hp j3s do very well. I wouldn't call a pa-11 "affordable" because you will spend 20 grand more on a pa-11 than a 85hp j3 and I'm not entirely sure why. But it's nice to fly from the front seat.

My very first cross country - and incidentally my first solo - in the cub was right after I bought the plane, flying from boulder down to santa fe, nm. Got her up to 11,500 with no stress at all. With slightly bigger tires (like 6x8s) they are very capable off-airport machines I'm told. Backcountry capability is a function of excess hp - not total hp - so the light weight of the cubs make them fantastic 1-up machines. Start learning mountain flying and glider technique and the world gets a lot bigger with a lot more options. The glider guys are going up when most power pilots are sitting around on the ground thinking what the hell are they doing up there that can be so fun? A lot of free lift around here - especially in the summer - if you know where to look for it and catch it.

Camping is a challenge - but I am comfortable with backpacking style gear when solo - so you pack it all in a bag and seatbelt it down in the front seat and cram as many small things in the nooks and crannies as you can. Tie downs and tent poles go under my seat. sleeping bag and bug-out emergency bag behind my head. I just got back from 3-days of camping around the black hills of SD.

I'm going for 10 days to missouri breaks and over to JC in June with the supercub guys. I'll see you guys at Caveman and Marble, too.

Everything is a tradeoff. She is a sweet flier - and I love the way it handles. Stalls right at or just below 30mph (not knots) and flies predictably on the edge of the back side of the curve. You have to be aggressive to get it to break, it will mush all day. Uber-aggression will get it to spin.

The downside of the light weight means you get bounced around more in the turbulence. But at low to mid 700lbs empty and light on fuel (only holds 12 gallons) you can get in and out of lots of places the big boys do - if you like me are working on your skills. You are on the ground many days when the maule and 180/182 crowd are marginally going. I'm okay with that. I would like to take 2 passengers and bigger cargo. Fly earlier in the morning and quit and drink beers earlier is the strategy for me.

I want a mall or a 180 too. I just love those cavernous cargo capacity. My thought was to get a desirable small bird to build skills and t/w time to lessen the brunt of the insurance bill and ownership costs when I go bigger. I also haven't convinced my wife that she's an airplane freak yet - nor my son. If they were on board, I'd be already in a 4-place. I'm trying to get there.

85 or better is what you want up here in my opinion. With my 85, I"m looking at a total engine overhaul cost 14k or so - and I can upgrade via STC to 95 (approx) hp with STC and swapping out internals (o200 crank/pistons stroker kit) but I have less than 400 since major on mine and about 50 since top overhaul so I won't need to do that any time soon. a lot of stc available to improve backcountry experience: cleveland disk brakes, 26" or 29" airstreak bushwheels, scott 3200 tailwheel, metal 74" climb prop.

PM me and we can go fly. You can experience what it's like to be heavy in the cub. It'll give you a good feel for what similar lightweight craft will do (tcraft, champs, etc).

TBO on the continental IO-360 which is in the maule m4/m5 210c and cessna 172 xp is 1500hrs.

YMMV.

Continental service bulletin, w/ recommended TBO times:
http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SIL98-9B.pdf

You can call someone like Western Skyways and ask for a ballpark quote to do a field major on the IO-360, but you will very likely be in the $25k range:
http://www.westernskyways.com/IO-360/

Most folks will tell you to fly it till it dies, and save money in a reserve until you need it.

One more thing. There is a 172 xp for rent up in longmont (along with several citabrias so you can get a tw endorsement) but you can get checked out in the 210hp 172 and fly it around here and see if a nose dragger - or the cont 210hp engine is for you.

I flew that xp up to JC last summer - it did great. Landed at JC and Memaloose and made it home without damage to life, limb, or property. And I'm a total greenhorn.

Kevin:

While CO isnt' ID or UT when it comes to backcountry strips, there are some great spots.

Look into Marble, Hubbard and Delores Point, to name a few. All on shortfield website. I love Marble. Not sure its status these days as it is privately owned. CO ususally has a late summer flyin there each year. I'm sure the CO guys can give you good info on that.

Also consider getting in touch with RAF rep in CO. He is on the RAF website and is a great resource and not far from you in Arvada. He is currently working with BLM on a list of over 10 strips on the westslope. He is a great guy and a tremendous resource on backcountry flying.

Maule, 182 and 180s all have the capacity to grow with your family if that happens and are all outstanding 2 place airplanes that will take you to the backcountry with necessary camping gear. 180s are harder to come by in the 50s price range, but early model versions are out there in the 50 to 60 range.

Consider closely the tailwheel endorsement. A 180 is a handfull in a cross wind. Can't speak for the Maules, but in general taildraggers are harder. If you haven't had tailwheel experience, you really have to commit to learning properly and getting good solid instruction. It will take you a while and most don't every get their skill set where it should be. The RAF rep can help you with that too.

Make sure you also consider the insurance!! I doubt you could get 180 coverage without 25 to 50 hrs minimum, perhaps more. Maybe some of the others here can give you specifics, but even if you do get coverage, it will be significantly more expensive.

It has been pointed out, but also consider operating costs. My 180 with the big engine sucks 11 to 12 gls per hr and costs double to annual what a cub would cost. Also more expensive when something goes wrong. I love my 180, but I wince when I pull up to the pumps.

Finally, as said previously, consider some of the early model TCrates, Luscombes, 140s, 150s, J-models, etc. The lower hp versions will be more gentle on your wallet and they force you to master the basics. Just have to keep really good judgement about the reduced operating envelope and how to deal with that. Again, good instruction can help a lot with that.

Good Luck and keep us posted on your progress. Consider coming down to NM for the fall Negrito flyin. Little bit of a trip for you, but it is a beautiful spot and pretty accessible with just about any plane. ON the nmpilots.org website.

Larry