I’m a midwesterner with about 500 hours in a 185. Still getting instruction locally to get sharper, etc.

Thinking about a major western trip to the photogenic places, and I’d like to get some instruction there.

McCall has a great reputation and will let me fly my own airplane. But, goodness! The price!

Then there’s Kevin Quinn, who teaches in his own Skywagon, which likely wouldn’t be too different from mine. If he’ll teach me about landing off-airport, I might feel better beating up his airplane than mine.

And CC Pocock, who teaches in his tricked out 170. I don’t know if his personality is a bug or a feature.

I flew with Steve Johnson in Arkansas a couple of years ago. I had a great time and learned a lot. He convinced me to get an autopilot, so the trip wound up costing about $30,000.

Other ideas? I’m sure I could just go on a carefully chosen day, land at Johnson Creek, take a bunch of pictures, and show everyone at home and on Instagram what a cool bush pilot I am. But I’m interested in becoming confident, competent, and knowledgeable. I won’t be able to afford this Skywagon forever; it’s time to get it muddy.

StuBob, it’s hard to make a useful recommendation without knowing your current capabilities.

For instance, can you put you 185 on the ground within the length of the plane? (You don’t have to answer that here)

If not you can practice that at any airport. Get in the habit of making every landing a precision landing. If you can already do that congratulations. And do at all weights from light to gross.

Go high, pull a notch of flaps (then two) and fly every configuration you can think of at MCA. Stall horn will be screaming at you. Get super comfortable doing this.

Also get to where you can fly the length of the runway at MCA in ground effect with your wheels just a couple inches off the ground.

All this and more is great prep for going into the backcountry. And remember these are all perishable skills so keep doing them frequently.

And if you want to land at the more scenic strips in Idaho McCall would be worth the money, and definitely go in your own plane.

First get the landings very smooth and stable

Next get them surgical when it comes to where you touch, DONT FORCE THINGS

Next work on minimal distance

Also good to get some spin training if you haven’t already, having it hard wired what to do with a wing drop is good

Some glider training is also good

Backcountry wise, I’d go with CC, probably learn something and I have a strong feeling it would be a hoot! It’s on my list


Outside from that, lots you can learn yourself, just be humble and don’t push yourself too hard, or harder than your wallet or insurance can take you

Barnstormer nailed it.

Come see us in Boulder, CO for some glider training at Mile High Gliding if you'd like along the way. It will help your powered flying with stick and rudder and energy management. I've heard very good things about Lori MacNichol in McCall, ID so if you are flying in Idaho and still not comfortable she has a wealth of local knowledge and could give you great local experience for all the Idaho strips and how to progress from the easy to the serious safely. Kevin is an awesome dude, too. As for Captain Crash, I've never flown with him but I attended one of his talks at Oshkosh. He ain't for everyone, but you can get some wisdom from anyone. You'll spend a fair bit of time setting up your plane for rear Cg.

Most of the skills you really need can be practiced and learned safely in your own plane locally. You will need that anyway before really getting into any place that you need to use them. Spot landings, steep approaches, short field technique. If you can't do those things repeatedly on your own then you need a local instructor - you don't need to travel west for more advanced stuff.

Good advice so far. Get a copy of Mountain Flying Bible Revised it has great information about understanding how to safely fly in the mountains. Read a bunch of Contactflying posts on energy management. Altitude and Speed are often not your friends in the mountains!! Get into the mindset that you will not have a place to land safely if something goes wrong. Train your eyes to look for good places to crash not land. Be careful not to get a bunch of STOL competition training, you want mountain flying, although similar it can be dangerous it off field situations (do not do drag it in landings). Spending the money for good instruction in your plane is the best bang for the buck you will ever get. Spin training and being willing to change you attitude toward previous training you thought was gospel is key to adapting to the mountains. Mountain flying is just flying nothing special except you flight plan (weather,wind,vis) tends to change around the next corner or ridge and there is a lot of them in a single flight. Learn to fly with only feet and trim so you can take all the pictures! Have fun.
DENNY

DENNY wrote:Get into the mindset that you will not have a place to land safely if something goes wrong. Train your eyes to look for good places to crash not land.

I went to a Patrick Romano seminar back when he had a traveling show. Just wonderful. Watching cool video, someone asked one of the instructors, "what are you going to do if the engine quits?"
The answer was something like, "there are going to be times when you just have to resign yourself to the fact that, if the engine quits, this could be a very bad day. If you can't come to grips with that, this type of flying might not be for you."
Since I fly single engine IFR, at night, and night IFR, I've come to terms with that.

Be careful not to get a bunch of STOL competition training,

No interest.

Spending the money for good instruction in your plane is the best bang for the buck you will ever get.

Yep. That's the plan.

Learn to fly with only feet and trim so you can take all the pictures! Have fun.
DENNY

Thanks, Denny and everyone!

Stu,

Not a bad idea to get some Mountain Flying Instruction for those used to flatland flying. I agree the McCall Mountain/Canyon Flying Seminars are just a little too steep in price now.

I would recommend reading the following: Amy Hoover's "Mountain, Canyon, and Backcountry Flying", and Sparky Imeson's " Mountain Flying Bible. " I think Amy Hoover has a better writing style than Sparky but both books are outstanding.

For reasonable seasoned instructors contact either Pete Nelson - with Middle Fork Aviation or Fred Williams with Adventure Flying. Both of these guys are top notch professional backcountry pilots/instructors and you could set up a couple of days of flying with them at a very reasonable cost. Guessing about 1000 per day using your airplane. I think if you planned 2-3 days with either one of these guys you would be able to handle most of the Idaho Backcountry strips.

I think it is good to approach the Mountain and Canyon Flying with some caution but truth be told many of the Idaho strips are not too difficult with the correct planning and preparation. Start with the easy strips and work your way up the difficulty ladder. Some good general tips to keep you out of trouble.

1. Fly in the early mornings and be on the ground before it gets hot or windy - generally before 10-11 AM.
2. Fly with light loads. The lighter the better.
3. Study the terrain and drainages
4. Don't fly when the winds aloft over 9K are > 20 knots
5. Know your airplane's short field performance.
6. Watch out for convective weather in the mountains.
7. Prepare the airplane with good Mx before hand
8. Have survival gear


Hope this helps. By the way - I thought you were selling the Skywagon. Glad to hear you are keeping it. I think the Skywagon is the perfect airplane for Idaho Flying.


Josh

If you've flown with Pizza Pat, then contact him again. He might make time for a former seminar attendee since he ain't makin' pizzas no more. He still has his Maule and his Supercub. Maybe he's still lurking here.

You can't do any better than that guy for this game.

StuBob wrote:I went to a Patrick Romano seminar back when he had a traveling show. Just wonderful. Watching cool video, someone asked one of the instructors, "what are you going to do if the engine quits?"
The answer was something like, "there are going to be times when you just have to resign yourself to the fact that, if the engine quits, this could be a very bad day. If you can't come to grips with that, this type of flying might not be for you."
Since I fly single engine IFR, at night, and night IFR, I've come to terms with that.

Dog is my Copilot wrote: By the way - I thought you were selling the Skywagon.

Josh

Rumors of a hot, sellers’ market are greatly exaggerated.

As the old R&B hit says, “Cheaper to Keep Her.” [Johnnie Taylor — worth a listen right now!]

It’s a topic that comes up here fairly often: the flatlander venturing into the mountains. If I crash up there some day, I’d rather not give anyone the opportunity to say I shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

There's an old adage that has always stuck with me in my aviation career; An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure.

A lot of flying the backcountry and mountains is a mental game. There are times when there is no good spot to put it if you have an engine failure. Dropping down in a narrow valley going into a one way strip with no go around is not something your mind can practice in the flat lands, you can simulate it, but you know in the back of your mind that you always have an out. Its like flying real IMC vs simulated, you can always take off the view limiting device.
I think one of the hardest things for people not familiar with mountains and backcountry flying is the scale of the mountains, if you find yourself in a bad spot you can't just fly 10 miles to find a nice big runway.

If you have no mountain experience, I would recommend against jumping directly into backcountry flying. Find an instructor to give you mountain flying instruction. There are flight schools in the Denver area that can take you out to fly the paved strips of Colorado.
If you think you have the airplane handling skills, and mountain flying experience, fly into Colorado, land in Granby, Meeker, Kremmling, Leadville, and Rifle, if all those don't bother you, pick a nice day and land at Glenwood Springs. All of those except Glenwood Springs are in pretty big wide open valleys, but you will get a feel for what it looks like to fly down in the valley. Glenwood Springs is the closest to a backcountry strip that you'll find, you can't fly a normal pattern there, the winds can be quite difficult to deal with especially in the afternoons, and its 3200' long at 5900'. Then you could fly into Utah where there is a lot of good flying to be had. Utah gets too hot for me in the summer, but the rest of the year its great. There are many strips out there that will allow you to increase the difficulty level as you go. There are a few good instructors in western Colorado that can teach you in Utah.

StillLearning wrote: I think one of the hardest things for people not familiar with mountains and backcountry flying is the scale of the mountains, if you find yourself in a bad spot you can't just fly 10 miles to find a nice big runway.

For me it’s always been the constant looping question “have I backed myself into a corner?” The performance loss at high DA can be sobering, and being below ridgetop level while experiencing anemic climb rates is no fun. There’s no “punching out” if you don’t like what you see in the windscreen.

If you’re in the high elevation flats of like…eastern CO or WY and have open sky to climb, that’s one thing. But following drainages and betting on your situational awareness and pilotage skills is another.

I think that’s why having an introduction to the Idaho strips from someone who’s flown those approaches, which are often unorthodox and creative per the terrain, is really valuable. Because of that I think the biggest takeaway is the planning and strategy of it all.

And if your instructor starts the lesson with “hey guys, welcome back to the channel” with one eye on his GoPro, abort the flight.

Zzz wrote:

StillLearning wrote: I think one of the hardest things for people not familiar with mountains and backcountry flying is the scale of the mountains, if you find yourself in a bad spot you can't just fly 10 miles to find a nice big runway.

For me it’s always been the constant looping question “have I backed myself into a corner?” The performance loss at high DA can be sobering, and being below ridgetop level while experiencing anemic climb rates is no fun.

If you’re in the high elevation flats of like…eastern CO or WY and have open sky to climb, that’s one thing. But following drainages and betting on your situational awareness and pilotage skills is another.

I think that’s why having an introduction to the Idaho strips from someone who’s flown those approaches, which are often unorthodox and creative per the terrain, is really valuable. Because of that I think the biggest takeaway is the planning and strategy of it all.

And if your instructor starts the lesson with “hey guys, welcome back to the channel” with one eye on his GoPro, abort the flight.

100% ZZZ!

Building margin through superior planning is the best strategy for staying safe out there. Knowing your routes and staying constantly aware of your position and options is of paramount importance when flying the steep drainages of Idaho.

And, if your student is preoccupied with setting up three cameras and filming selfies of themselves talking, cancel the lesson…

Unsurprisingly, I totally agree with Z and Scolopax.

As to a PIREP, I did the McCall course 18 years ago (!?) and it was perfect for me at the time. One of the aspects I really appreciated about it was the focus on planning, weather, strategies, briefing approaches, points of no return, survival, etc. beyond the flying. We did a ton of flying as well of course. I also really appreciated how we got to (optionally) load up our planes to gross with sand bags and get real performance data. I had just moved up to the 180 and was wanting to take my family backcountry camping in Idaho, so I wanted all the training and info I could get. For me, it was worth the cost and I've done many trips to Idaho since then.

That's not to say there aren't other options, but if the program is similar to what it was back then, I'd give McCall a thumbs up.

I would absolutely, unequivocally recommend you fly with Leigh Smith (http://www.techflying.com/home.html). He's based at OXI in northern Indiana. I spent a few hours with him last spring and it was some of the best money I've spent on any flight instruction, ever.

After some ground school, we started in the afternoon with air work. He covered up the entire panel of my 180 with a manila folder and we did stalls, steep turns, full-flap go-arounds, slow flight, etc at altitude. Next we transitioned to pattern work at OXI and worked on spot landings and rudder/yoke management on the ground. Finally we transitioned to a series of increasingly short and challenging grass strips in northern Indiana. We ended the day landing on his one-way 850' strip, where his wife cooked dinner and I slept in the guest room.

The next morning, we landed in the back yard of a guy who is apparently a renowned expert on 100-year-old tractors. This guy also happens to own a few taildraggers. That visit was interesting in and of itself. Then the wind conveniently picked up and we spent about two hours in the pattern with a 15-20 knot gusty crosswind.

All in all, great training and I highly recommend it. It'll help you get better for your next trip out west.

I’ve flown with Leigh. Excellent stuff.

We’re watching the weather, waiting for a windy day to practice.

I’ve trained with CC. He’s tough on you if you are not giving your best. He has zero tolerance for weakness.

Then, he cooks the best meals you can imagine to make up for it.

It was the steepest learning curve of anything I’ve ever done. I felt tenfold more aware when I was done with 4 straight days of it.

Can’t recommend him enough.

Everyone has recommend wonderful books and tips! As the all have said consistency and practice are key.
Once you feel you have like the you can nail your landing 9/10 then start changing the approach (steep, tight, different winds etc.) at it is truly rare day the weather and everything is perfect in the backcountry and with mountain terrain.
Coming up from Indiana your 185 will preform very differently at 7,000 vs almost sea level. So keep that in mind, and maybe do some stop and goes at a minimum consequence like U87.

If you make up to Idaho let me know and we should go flying!

*not a CFI* just have experience with off airport and general precision landing.

Also recommend Leigh Smith. If political correctness is your thing he is not for you. He really makes very little money doing this training and it is clear his motivation is to prevent schmucks like me from bending up the dwindling fleet we have. A pearl from early training was to let the plane fly itself. This is just not appropriate for a 185 which requires some manhandling. He drilled in: "This is not a pu*** airplane, stop flying it like one!" Things started to fall into line with this basic lesson.