So much great input and so very much appreciated. Anyone want to pick this one apart based on what you know about the aircraft and my wants and needs. This one looks super clean and has a float kit. I would most likely only fly with floats when bringing it to Florida. I would plan on flying my plane mostly in Colorado and Idaho in the summer and would fly it down to Florida in the fall into spring.
Something like this I could fall in love with quick. If it weren't for flying out west at high DA I would just consider an amphib and my backcountry landing would be 100% wet.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219691855/1977-cessna-a185f-piston-single-aircraft
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... e-aircraft

CubbyChubby wrote:New pilot, zero time in tailwheel, only real interest is learning to fly in and out of backcountry. High DA environment.
Would like some opinions on what I should be looking at and what I should pass on with the level of experience that I dont have lol.

CubbyChubby wrote:For those still here, what are your thoughts on a 180 amphib?

Well that escalated quickly....

You don't know me from Moses , none of us really... but here's the thing, flying a bit more complex of an aircraft, in a bit more complex of an environment, with loved ones on board, requires more than just desire. It requires more than just the financial wherewithal, and it requires more than just the mental knowledge of how to do it all. It requires experience, and it requires motor skills to be developed and most of all it requires the willingness to take the steps to get to that point.

Fastest way to being a competent and proficient 185 amphibious pilot that I can think of? Buy a low hp cub like type today and fly it to Florida and back this summer. Sell it for what you paid for it (*and not more because we want to do this quickly) then buy a Husky on whip 2100A's and do the same thing next summer, repeat / rinse, and pony up for the big boy.... Like it or not, those steps will make you experience things that you won't, dreaming about wonderful ships and backcountry escapades while pounding on a keyboard. They will save you the inevitable ground loop that your no tailwheel time reared is going to experience in a 180, they will save you the inevitable gear up on the pavement, or worse yet gear down on the water, and if you don't believe any of this, just go try and get an insurance quote as a low time no TW, no SES on a 18x amphib

For those who discount the 'own to train' program I would suggest the following... Short of a terrible pre buy, a terrible purchase, or terrible maintenance on your part, there is no such thing as depreciation on a 70 Y/O anything... Not an airplane, not a car, not a motorcycle... buy it right, treat it right, and then pass it on to the next care taker. IF you paid too much, well.... IF you bought high time and ran it out.... IF you are in to shoddy maintenance , well then, I've got nothing for you. This really does work, it's economics 101.

The bad thing about being, early this century, the only instructor around that still taught tailwheel was that by then the tailwheel students were old and new owners of fancy, expensive tailwheel airplanes. It had not been a problem back when you could rent a many times ground looped beater 7 AC Champ for three dollars an hour wet to train young pilots in. Anyway the time I had loved, but came to hate in later years, came and I had to say they were ready. They had the money for the expensive airplane and it was insured but they blamed me when they ground looped it. Don't do your tailwheel endorsement in anything pretty, you love, and/or had built. Don't put yourself and the poor instructor through that. Yes, insurance will cover it. Feelings will still be hurt.

That is not to mean many have not trained in fancy tailwheel airplanes when they were older and could afford it. Insurance companies have the stats, however.

Rob wrote:

CubbyChubby wrote:New pilot, zero time in tailwheel, only real interest is learning to fly in and out of backcountry. High DA environment.
Would like some opinions on what I should be looking at and what I should pass on with the level of experience that I dont have lol.

CubbyChubby wrote:For those still here, what are your thoughts on a 180 amphib?

Well that escalated quickly....

You don't know me from Moses , none of us really... but here's the thing, flying a bit more complex of an aircraft, in a bit more complex of an environment, with loved ones on board, requires more than just desire. It requires more than just the financial wherewithal, and it requires more than just the mental knowledge of how to do it all. It requires experience, and it requires motor skills to be developed and most of all it requires the willingness to take the steps to get to that point.

Fastest way to being a competent and proficient 185 amphibious pilot that I can think of? Buy a low hp cub like type today and fly it to Florida and back this summer. Sell it for what you paid for it (*and not more because we want to do this quickly) then buy a Husky on whip 2100A's and do the same thing next summer, repeat / rinse, and pony up for the big boy.... Like it or not, those steps will make you experience things that you won't, dreaming about wonderful ships and backcountry escapades while pounding on a keyboard. They will save you the inevitable ground loop that your no tailwheel time reared is going to experience in a 180, they will save you the inevitable gear up on the pavement, or worse yet gear down on the water, and if you don't believe any of this, just go try and get an insurance quote as a low time no TW, no SES on a 18x amphib

For those who discount the 'own to train' program I would suggest the following... Short of a terrible pre buy, a terrible purchase, or terrible maintenance on your part, there is no such thing as depreciation on a 70 Y/O anything... Not an airplane, not a car, not a motorcycle... buy it right, treat it right, and then pass it on to the next care taker. IF you paid too much, well.... IF you bought high time and ran it out.... IF you are in to shoddy maintenance , well then, I've got nothing for you. This really does work, it's economics 101.

Oh yeah, I'm almost ready for the Porter by page 3 of this discussion, lol. I appreciate your input and as long as I am flying something I'll be happy. I have a great time in the rental 172's but every $185/hour is $185 I don't have to spend toward owning my own. I don't need the mack daddy right out of the gate and maybe I never will need it, who knows. I am all for buying something to cut my teeth on for a few hundered hours. Would this be a better starter for getting in a years worth of tailwheel without going insurance broke?
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=CESSNA&model=170A&listing_id=2412817&s-type=aircraft#

Consider this. Last century I always made sure every student saw a ground loop up close and personal before I soloed them. I made sure they touched down slowly and softly enough for this to not be harmful. How does an instructor explain how helpful this is for making the student see how possible ground loop is, in a quarter of a million dollar airplane?

contactflying wrote:The bad thing about being, early this century, the only instructor around that still taught tailwheel was that by then the tailwheel students were old and new owners of fancy, expensive tailwheel airplanes. It had not been a problem back when you could rent a many times ground looped beater 7 AC Champ for three dollars an hour wet to train young pilots in. Anyway the time I had loved, but came to hate in later years, came and I had to say they were ready. They had the money for the expensive airplane and it was insured but they blamed me when they ground looped it. Don't do your tailwheel endorsement in anything pretty, you love, and/or had built. Don't put yourself and the poor instructor through that. Yes, insurance will cover it. Feelings will still be hurt.

That is not to mean many have not trained in fancy tailwheel airplanes when they were older and could afford it. Insurance companies have the stats, however.

Fancy is in the eye of the beholder. Everything these days has a fancy price but I don't find much of it fancy. That 170 I posted earlier is fancy. If I wore something like that out for a year cutting my teeth I might just keep it forever. I posted this topic of which tailwheelers handle the best on the because I want to do everyting I can to avoid breaking anything including looking into buying a plane that has been recommended as the best tailwheeler to learn the end goal on. I can't afford to rent planes for the next 400 hours but I can afford to go into debt for the next 400. If the plane I learn on turns out to be all I ever need I will be happy just the same. Merry Christmas and thanks for offering your help.

You can't buy your way into safe tailwheel performance!!! No amount of latest greatest whatever is going to help when you screw up a landing!!! You really need to to put in the time and effort to develop the skills needed. The most important thing is to get flying. In order to do that with your own plane you need a plan for maintaining the day to day issues. I have seen planes set for weeks because the pilot was looking for someone to come and do a simple mag check. Go find a IA to help with a plane that he is willing and knowledgeable with then park next to his hanger or as close as possible so when you have a problem he can just walk over and look at it. 50-75 grand should find a very nice trainer. Once again you cannot buy your way into safe tailwheel flying.
DENNY

You can't buy your way into safe tailwheel performance!!! No amount of latest greatest whatever is going to help when you screw up a landing!!! You really need to to put in the time and effort to develop the skills needed.

You can’t buy a golf game either!!

CubbyChubby wrote:Oh yeah, I'm almost ready for the Porter by page 3 of this discussion, lol.

Me too

CubbyChubby wrote: I have a great time in the rental 172's but every $185/hour is $185 I don't have to spend toward owning my own.

bingo!

CubbyChubby wrote: Would this be a better starter for getting in a years worth of tailwheel without going insurance broke?

A wayyy better direction than opening a can of CE185 whoopass prematurely. IMHO that particular craft is overpriced for an A model, which makes 'owning to train in' tough. You need to buy 'right' to sell it for what you paid for, and that's a huge help in the financial end of things.

People will tell you it's an under powered, underflapped dog... yep... good! It will teach you to fly. Maybe not that one, but something like it bought right. 12-18 months later you will have learned more about that wing (and that's all that really counts) than any of the rest of us that are trying to get you to spend your money on a 2023 Kodiak 900 (because the Porter no longer exists)

Keep renting for the immediate future. Take Jack up on his amazing offer to see if you even want to mess with a tandem. (Both myself and my wife love them). and keep your eye on the market, but be advised that the 'best of the best' sell by word of mouth, not barnstormers or trade a wreck.

In the end, if you're going ampigs, I think you'll be happier with a 206 and a PT6 on the nose, it's the direction I'm headed

Take care,
Rob

And just to call Jack on his offer, I'll make the same, but I only have a lowly cub and 180 and live a fair piece on the other side of the rocks

Schwarz wrote:

You can't buy your way into safe tailwheel performance!!! No amount of latest greatest whatever is going to help when you screw up a landing!!! You really need to to put in the time and effort to develop the skills needed.

You can’t buy a golf game either!!

aint that the truth.

I went looking for a good ground handling TW airplane. The mission was to train my son, allow him to build valuable TW experience and eventually get his IR. I was to be his CFI. We had the typical new-to-us airplane woes but now have a solid bird. He eventually soloed and can now fly out of our 1700 X 20' crushed gravel runway. I can't say enough good things about the Stinson and safety it provides.

Here he is on his 3rd solo. First solo out of a KPWT 6000' runway, next KPUL 3500' runway and finally our home base, WA77.
https://youtu.be/ob1RSOXM5JQ

jaudette wrote:As a couple of others have opined, I'd get a 182. If you only have one airplane, you'll want to use it for more than just backcountry flying. Maybe I'm just not competent, but x-winds in a TW are always a consideration and a 182 will mitigate that. $250K would get you a sick bird, for sure.

I have owned several of the airplanes you listed. I currently have an RV-7a (go fast and far and land on pavement) and a Husky (go slow and far and land anywhere). If I had to pair it down to just one airplane, I would sell them both and get a 182.

As far as the ones you listed, they're all great aircraft. The Maule's can be challenging on pavement, but are delightful off field. The others seem more docile.

I'm not that far from you and if you want to come over and have a look and maybe go up, I'd be game.

Jim

That's a generous offer Jim. I will PM when I get back from FL after the 1st. TY

skyward II wrote:Get your tailwheel training out of the way before you buy….

A pretty clean upper-mid-time ‘54 C180 JUST came up for sale on Barnstormer for about half your budget. I’d be all over it if I was shopping.

I could be happy in that for sure. Would break my heart to break it though.

CubbyChubby wrote:So much great input and so very much appreciated. Anyone want to pick this one apart based on what you know about the aircraft and my wants and needs. This one looks super clean and has a float kit. I would most likely only fly with floats when bringing it to Florida. I would plan on flying my plane mostly in Colorado and Idaho in the summer and would fly it down to Florida in the fall into spring.
Something like this I could fall in love with quick. If it weren't for flying out west at high DA I would just consider an amphib and my backcountry landing would be 100% wet.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219691855/1977-cessna-a185f-piston-single-aircraft
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... e-aircraft

Sounds like you have the means to afford to buy a Skywagon along with maintain it well. I will echo the the previous comments about possibly starting with a lighter smaller tailwheel airplane first - but it seems to me you have sort of talked yourself into starting with a modded 185. Hard to talk people out of something once the enthusiasm and excitement buttons are hit. Just understand you need to devote a lot of time to training. You also have to start slow and work your way up in terms of skill and mission difficulty. There is a story of a young pilot - I believe < 300 hours who crashed a beautiful fairly new M7-260 up at Mile High a few years ago. This pilot had no business with this level of experience attempting this strip. There seems to be a lot of glory in backcountry flying and bagging strips is part of the fun. I am guilty of it myself but have also paid my dues with years of training.

Here are some good places to start. First - find a knowledgeable IA who knows Skywagons like the back of his hands. You need this locked down before you start looking at airplanes. Many of these old airplanes can look good from far but when you get a look under the microscope - you can find a lot of costly maintenance. I would also find a place that does tailwheel training and get the endorsement. I am assuming you finished the PPL. You should go fly a tailwheel airplane just to make sure you enjoy this type of flying. It is not for everybody. I think you'll love it but it will also make you appreciate the difficulty flying them. Everyone who gets behind a conventional gear airplane for the first time is humbled. All of the control surfaces require much tighter and more accurate control. Trikes - especially C150-175s - are incredibly forgiving. I am always amazed out how far out of alignment the longitudinal axis can be with the intended landing path. Makes me laugh when I am teaching in them because they just tolerate a shit-ton of yaw. Cessna called their new trike landing gear introduced in 1956 - " Landomatic Landing Gear. "

Once you have a TW endorsement and an IA picked out - go look for the 185. That link you posted shows promise but until you have the IA picked out and ready to start helping you - I think it is too premature. At first glance this plane looks nice. Low time and a low time motor but the engine was overhauled in 2008 and it only has 160 hours in 14+ years. This means the plane sat and could need a engine overhaul or cylinder replacement. Hangar queens usually have a lot of problems.

Lastly, once you buy the Skywagon. Invest your time and efforts in lots of dual instruction. You're going to need to learn a lot of things to fly this airplane safely. I would just hire someone to give you 50+ hours of instruction - maybe more. Consider taking the Bush Air by CC and/or the mountain canyon flying course by Lori Macnichol. The float flying stuff is a whole other area of knowledge. I might stick with the land flying for a couple of years before venturing off on floats. So without beating a dead horse too much - " Training, Training and more Training. " With that being said - I think you can buy a 185 and learn to fly it safely. Would it be smarter to buy a lighter cheaper plane first to thrash on - yes. But - I get the passion and excitement for owning a Skywagon. Can't say I blame you - they are awesome machines.


Josh

Thank you Josh. No, I am not set on anything yet, haven't ruled out the following 170, 180, 185, 182. I think I have ruled out CC, Maule, Huskys, etc, at least as a first plane. I think it would be wise for me to go with a nice clean older cessna that can one day be modified for BC flying if I don't break it learning. I like the idea of getting something that I can wrench on a bit. Would be fun to have projects around the hanger to work on. I've watched some impressive videos on the abilities of the 170 with some upgrades and I like it. Not great for high DA but I have options on where I can fly and some with a bit lower DA than Eastern CO. I have a hanger in Blackfoot ID at McCarley Field that I bought last summer in anticipation of putting a plane in it one day so that's a partial plan.
Another thing I like about the 170 is that my wife is new to flying (well, new to the cockpit she spent 14 years as crew on RC135 & E3 USAF) and she thinks the 170 "is cute". I was thinking I could cut teeth on a 170 then give it to her as her baby if I feel like I need for something different down the road. We're both pretty nostalgic so we both like old retro things from cars to home stereos, campers, boats, etc. so a nice old early capable 50's cessna would be sweet to fly if the money and condition were right.

If your into or willing to spend some coin but not necessarily the most "cost effective" approach to will have a gen with an 0-360 C170 and plenty of resale value if it doesn't "scratch the itch" at the end of the day.

I was in the same position 6 years ago. I was looking at maules, insurance was nearly $5k per year then, cub or 170 was half that.
Met a guy with a 180, decided I had to have one too. It took many months to find the right one. I had many experienced pilots suggest I start with something easier to fly. I was 45 at the time, had just got a ppl, I didn’t feel like I wanted to practice for a few years and then move up.
I got my tail wheel endorsement at 64 hours, in a pacer. Instructor said I was the best student he ever had. I was the test pilot for my homebuilt tail wheel CGS Hawk at 97 hours. When I finally bought the 180 I had 167 hours total, 67 tail wheel.
I hired an instructor to fly it home with me. Spent about 7 hours with him. He said he had never helped me in all the takeoffs and landings. I had numerous people telling me how hard it was to fly it, how quickly it would get away from me. I was pretty well intimidated before I ever sat in the left seat of a 180!
I’m now 900 hours total, get nervous when I have to fly a tricycle gear plane. 230 hours in my Hawk, about 475 hours in the 180. I started flying backcountry at about 40 hours in the 180. Idaho 4 times, Utah 4 to 5 times a year. I love my 180. No regrets! Best thing I ever bought for myself.

Buy it, get comfortable in it with an instructor, and enjoy it.

+1

This website can fairly reliably convince anyone with money to buy a skywagon. The first stage is gatekeeping - telling the prospective buyer than a wagon is too much. “Buy a 182, it’ll do 90%” they say. “As a new pilot, you probably can’t handle one like all of us.” The second stage (after much heehawing and many unrelated stories from the old timers) is letting in a little sliver of hope, that maybe, just maybe, if you get all your marbles together and wear a nice button up shirt, you too could be a skywagon driver with a million hours dual with a billion hour instructor. After another dose of anecdotes, analogies, and “just buy a maule”s by the likes of me, stage 3 is the part where the conversation morphs to a wagon being the only real option, when you think about it. The phrase “Why settle?” slips past their lips nonchalantly as you sign up to spend an amount of money that could put multiple kids through college, feed Uganda for a year, and still have enough left over for a shitbox Tcraft.

I know because it happened to me in 2016.

The 170B with 180HP is more fun to fly than the 180, if fun is a factor for you.
It cannot carry as much as the 180, but at gross weight the 170B still performs great.
I dont know how it will perform at high density altitude, have not taken mine to Idaho or Montana yet.

Maybe someone who has flown theirs to high DA might give you an opinion.