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Best tiedowns for backcountry

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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

mtv wrote:That knot IS two half hitches. I back it with another half hitch to lock it.


I'll let the experts debate if it's the same, seems different to me. Seems like not having the knots against one another is a completely different slippage scenario.

mtv wrote:Yes, it may slip a LITTLE bit.....BUT it also allows you to reTIGHTEN it during a storm, by simply sliding it tighter. IT then locks again. In the midst of a big storm, you sure don't want to have to untie your airplane to tighten the lines, do you? And, you ARE out there at the airport, tending the lines and keeping an eye on it DURING that big storm, right??


Nope, almost certainly I'm not. 1) If the storm is so strong that my aircraft is in serious risk, I certainly don't want to be adding my fragile self to the equation. 2) If I'm in the US then I'm probably at one of two airports. Both have derelict airplanes on the ramps with tie-downs I don't trust. I'd say, with some justification from a storm in 2010 (http://is.gd/IwA6VE), that the risk of one of those planes landing on me during the storm is higher than that of my plane breaking away from its shiny new ropes. 3) Perhaps most importantly, the insured hull value on my airplane is high enough to replace the loss. In the, hopefully unlikely, event that a loss occurs, I'm comfortable having it be their financial loss rather than me in a hospital resulting from my first two objections.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

I rode out hurricane Iniki on my little 30 foot sailboat tied to a pier. It was my only asset and my home. I had to fight for survival! A boat sunk next to ours because of mooring lines letting go.

Today is different... I may not take risks like that but I'm not going to be complacent either. I will sit in a car or chair all night if it means adding safety to persons or property.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

tcraft wrote:Okay just a thought or idea here what about using the bungee cords off of your cub Taylorcraft etc. and using them for the shock load seems like they would be more than Adequate for the shock load on your plane just wondering If anyone has ever used it doesn't work or bad idea etc.?


Shock cords are over kill in my view. Nylon has just enough dampening and I recommend it (used it for the last 40+ years). But, It has to be real Nylon. I have made the mistake of using other types of lines. NEVER AGAIN! Go to a good marine store to purchase line. Check the designation on the spools on every cut!
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

8GCBC wrote:I rode out hurricane Iniki on my little 30 foot sailboat tied to a pier. It was my only asset and my home. I had to fight for survival! A boat sunk next to ours because of mooring lines letting go.


Woah. That one hits close to home. Friends brother was dashed to death on the shores of lake michigan doing something similar.

8GCBC wrote:Today is different... I may not take risks like that but I'm not going to be complacent either. I will sit in a car or chair all night if it means adding safety to persons or property.


Perhaps experiences like that above are why I'll choose to not take risks for property. People are a different story.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

There is certainly weather that I will run from! Tornados are an example!

Also, a predicted direct hit from a Typhoon in the low lying island of the Western Pacific would get me moving fast! The locals ride them out by preselecting a coconut tree by the village hierarchy, then climbing it and tying themselves to it. They told me to make sure my tree was on the available list, in case I needed to climb it.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

It's people who don't care for their property who create hazards. An airplane getting away from it's tiedowns in my experience is something you can observe pretty well in advance. I sat through a lot of storms baby sitting airplanes, and never once felt that I was even slightly at risk. Those were not tornados, by any means, but 60 plus knot winds in Kodiak are not that uncommon. Only planes I ever saw get away were owners who tied the airplanes down, and left, not to return to the airport till spring....hoping their airplane would be there, or calling their insurance if not.

Note that I said several posts back that the best tiedowns are not going to suffice in some conditions....and that is indeed what insurance is for. But, in my opinion, an owner has an obligation to make an effort to keep the plane from being damaged.

Again, I'm not talking about sitting at an airport during a severe thunderstorm warning, with known tornados...that's a different deal. But, if a plane is getting away from it's tiedowns in a big wind, you'll see it coming. I've watched it happen more than once.

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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

Emory Bored wrote:And check your sigmets before heading out too.


EXCELLENT POINT! However, for extended trips into remote areas, one hopes the radio continues to work.

Anybody know of a commercially-available solar charger that is super-lightweight (as in films)?
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

mtv wrote:That knot IS two half hitches. I back it with another half hitch to lock it. Yes, it may slip a LITTLE bit.....BUT it also allows you to reTIGHTEN it during a storm, by simply sliding it tighter. IT then locks again.
MTV


I've been climbing for 20 years, and a few years spend doing SAR work and some rigging. When I started flying I was SHOCKED to see pilots trusting this knot. In the climbing world (and I would hope sailing) knots are taken very seriously - and there are instances of knots slipping and walking while rappelling which resulted in a body recovery. Tying down a plane in any kind of wind will subject the knot to constant jerking and loading and unloading - and the knots we use will work loose. See my avatar for the result.

I don't understand why we continue to use a knot which is so easy to see that it will slip - and does slip. I agree we should be out tending the lines - but I still want a better knot to tie down.

A trucker's hitch is very easy to tighten up - a lot tighter - and if locked off with a mule knot will not slip except for the stretch in the line. A mule knot is a half hitch with a bight - can be untied while loaded and easily tightened again. A bowline is good - but difficult to tighten snug and impossible to untie when the ropes are loaded. We could also use a mooring hitch - but that knot likes to be kept under constant load.

I use a simpler version of this
http://www.animatedknots.com/truckers/

Has there ever been a tie down knot thread?
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

The key to my success (luck?) using the two half hitch (which may have been just dumb luck). Is using 3 strand nylon only and butting the ends securely. The knot is dangerous if not butted correctly, agreed.

For climbing its the bowline (Yosemite style), figure eight, grapevine, water knot, clove hitch etc... I use

I may switch from the two half hitch (bitch) to the trucker's hitch after reading these posts! Dang it! Seems logical.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

soyAnarchisto wrote:A trucker's hitch is very easy to tighten up - a lot tighter - and if locked off with a mule knot will not slip except for the stretch in the line.


Yeah, a truckers hitch is one I considered. But then I'm back to believing that tensioning the rope isn't a good thing. Since the point of the truckers hitch is to be able to tighten the line, seems like the two half hitches gives me everything for less complexity.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

I have found that arresting of potential inertia is safer when securing objects with lines. Keeping lines tight is an intuitive and pragmatic habit I have formed over the years. If something is moving there is potential energy building up beyond the static weight of the object (stored energy). If an object is not allowed to move, potential energy is mitigated. Also, movement is hard on the ground tackle and if not dampened correctly can damage the airframe. Learned from my personal teacher "The School of Hard Knocks", as usual.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

I have to agree with you 8gcbc. I just think that with stretching rope, flexing gear, and big tires, that 1" of slack becomes more in a big wind. Not saying to tie it down as hard as I can, but I do like the straps to be snug.
As MTV stated, the best thing to do is be there watching the plane in a storm. I enjoy the luxury of having my plane parked right iutside my bedroom window. This drives my wife crazy though, because during a stoem ir big eind I can hardly sleep and get up to check on Elvira (the plane) every 15 minutes...
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

I hear you. And the FAA guidance on this is ancient. Would love more detail. It would be pretty easy to convince me to keep the lines "snug" rather than "tight". When I hear "tight", particularly with a truckers hitch being involved, I'm imaging a constant negative load of tens of pounds. When I hear "snug" I'm imaging taking up the slack, but applying a couple pounds, or less, of negative load. Maybe I'm just reading too much into the word "tight" so we're talking past each other.

Whatever, seems like we agree on the basics. Good rope, good knots. That's got to be 95% of the battle. If I have bad enough luck that the plane departs controlled park despite those, then I guess I'm ok with answering the insurance adjusters questions.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

When I was at Laramie from 73 through 96, we used chains, but we kept them tight. The pilots who had problems were the ones who left them loose, so that the airplane would rock in the wind and suddenly pull the chain taut. That sudden jerking stop will damage things, for sure.

I saw a beautiful 170B virtually destroyed that way. The guy came in, the weather was pretty calm at that moment, and when he tied down (wouldn't allow the ramp rabbit to touch it), he left the chains sagging. When he walked into the FBO, I suggested he might want to snug up the chains--he replied with one of those "expletive-deleted" comments that made me think he would deserve whatever happened.

Overnight, the winds came up, and when I came out to the airport the next morning, that poor 170B had a bent wing, bent strut, obviously broken spar. I later heard that the guy had no hull insurance, though I don't know that for sure.

I use nylon straps now, for convenience, but I still carry nylon ropes, which I'll use in any real blow. When I use them, I use what some people call a hurricane knot, and what I've always called a running lock knot. I learned this from an old boy that ran the Evanston, WY FBO some 40 odd years ago, I've used it ever since, and it's rock solid--no slipping at all. It's basically a double overhand knot, which on the second wrap is pulled tight and locks itself, followed by a second double overhand knot which locks, with the tail of the rope then tied in a third overhand knot and snugged up to the lower double overhand knot.

Thinking that damage will occur by snugging the tiedowns tightly is mostly an old wives' tale. Normal category airplanes must be able to handle negative G loads of 1.52; utility category airplanes must be able to handle negative G loads of 1.76, both with a safety factor of 1.5. Unless you use a come-along, the likelihood of being able to put a load onto the wings equal to 2.28 negative Gs (normal) or 2.6 negative Gs (utility) is pretty slim. Certainly you can't do it, just by pulling down on a single rope threaded through the tie-down ring--no matter how strong you are, you can't put more tensile force on that rope than your weight, and for most of us, it's a whole lot less than our weight. So if you assume that the pull on the tie downs of a 1500 lb. airplane is equal between the two wing tie down rings, factoring in the negative G loads they're designed to take, that means that you could theoretically put a 1700 lb. maximum pull on each one of them without damage; a constant pull of let's say 100 lbs would be less than 10% of the normal category negative G force load allowed without regard to the 1.5 safety factor. Hard to think that could ever cause any damage, as long as the pull is constant. Even much heavier pulls caused by rocking would be unlikely to cause damage, if there's some give in the tie down ropes.

Using nylon rather than hemp or some other natural fiber rope has the added benefit of some stretchiness, so that in a gusty wind, the nylon fibers absorb some of the rocking energy. New nylon 3 strand rope will have a working strength of around 475 lbs--but a breaking strength of over 5600 lbs (that' not a mistype--5600). Even 3/8" nylon rope will have a working load of 270 lbs. and a breaking strength of over 3200 lbs. However, if nylon is left outside constantly, it will gradually lose strength, so it should be replaced periodically. Chafing can be a problem over time, so just like using thimbles and chafe guards with anchor rodes helps reduce that, similar methods can be used to reduce the chafing of tie downs.

I also agree, though, that in a heavy blow, there's nothing like being there to do whatever is necessary to keep things snugged. I worry more about someone else's airplane blowing into mine, because they didn't use good enough tie downs or adequate tie down ropes, than that mine will come loose.

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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

well maybe we are now arguing semantics - tight to me means just that - snug with a few extra pounds of constant tension. The trucker's hitch gives you a little mechanical advantage (like 1.6 to 1) but not really winching it down - certainly no more than those who have those ratcheting tie downs can put in. I think it needs to be snug enough to stay snug.

That double half hitch - is barely a friction not - it will not loosen easily. I use a single over hand slip knot (rather then the full figure 8 from the above animated knot site) and feed through my tiedown ring - around the strut - and back through the tie down ring down to the bight from the trucker hitch - cinch it down tight and finish with a mule knot (half hitch on a bight) so it can be unloaded easily but will not slip anywhere nearly as easily as the double half hitch method.

I can tie the knot(s) in seconds... very easy and far more secure than the "traditional" double half hitch. To pilots who take things seriously - this knot most of us use is a real joke.
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Re: Best tiedowns for backcountry

soyAnarchisto wrote:well maybe we are now arguing semantics - tight to me means just that - snug with a few extra pounds of constant tension.


Ok, I think we're on the same page.
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