highroad wrote:I think we need to be careful how we display our emotions on this event.

...

Risk: Another factor that many of us don't understand or take into account is culture. Until you have walked in someone's shoes, there is no way to fully comprehend what is "normal" and "acceptable" to them.

RIP

Well said, Brent. I usually get emotional about these stories based on my own personal code of risk acceptance. I'm in no place to judge and it's a fruitless exercise to do so.

Single engine over the ocean is nothing new, nor is it going away any time soon (see F-35C). After reading the article it sounds like these guys were prepared. We as aviators will always "Monday morning quarterback" accidents. This conversation is how we learn from tragic events and in the process refine our own risk assessment/management strategies, survival techniques, etc.

As for freedom. Governments have, can, and will take almost any freedom in the name of "YOUR" safety. Be careful what you wish for.

From their blog:

We have read some negative comments to the blog and in some newspapers about the trip Haris and I have undertaken. Mostly, people form opinions without having all the facts or even bothering to verify things before posting negative comments. In the western vernacular these types are called Negative Nellies. It seems to be a case of being negative for the sake of being negative. So, here is the rationale for WHY the heck we wanted to do it and I will start by posing a few questions: 1) Why did Edmund Hillary Climb Mt Everest. 2) Why did Christopher Columbus discover America. 3) Why did Marco Polo travel to China. 4) Why did Ibn-e-Batuta travel all over the globe 5) Why did Zaheer ud din Babar conquer and take back his kingdom from his Uncle at the ripe young age of 13 ? 6) Why are we doing it if you (proverbial) don’t personally like us doing it…..should I go on ?

Granted that this is a risky venture….so is driving to work every day, some drunk driver or swerving truck could take you out. Should you stop driving ? No, you mitigate and try to become a more cautious and vigilant driver, but you may still get hit by someone who is not as cautious as you are. But that is not a reason for you to stop living. Also, here is something I and my wife very strongly believe in : If its not your time, its not your time, but when it is – no matter how many iron curtains you hide behind the grim reaper will get you. But if you go supporting a noble cause, you have made a point and achieved your goal.

Haris and I could have easily and quietly gone around the world and satisfied ourselves, but we decided that we wanted to do it for a purpose and a cause ! Having come to America after getting my basic education from Pakistan and getting advanced degrees from the US, I fully realize the true potential of education. I have stressed that to my three children as well and they know that there is no substitute for education. As a result, Haris and I decided to support the charity that we were introduced to by my dear friend Azher Khan of Indianapolis, Indiana, and we were supporting for the past 7 years, the Citizens’ Foundation (TCF). The rationale behind the support for TCF was to celebrate the success of creating 1000 standardized, purpose built schools in Pakistan and to promote this success to take this program further. When we travel the various cities in Pakistan, we see schools open in private residences in deplorable conditions. But if you take the time to visit a TCF school, you will be struck by the standards they maintain. To maintain those standards, the administrators of the schools are working tirelessly and the results are most gratifying and speak for themselves. The children in the TCF schools come from very humble and under privileged backgrounds but they want to excel in school. From being supporters, Haris and I have become believers in the mission of the TCF. But to publicize these successes, according to Marketing 101, people need to know and recognize what TCF has accomplished and what is possible even in the kind of conditions that exist in Pakistan today. There is also this small matter relating to the fact that if TCF schools had not picked up these kids, they would have never seen a school in their life time. Therefore, to promote TCF, we took on the banner of TCF and took off with it….

Lots more here: http://flyaroundtheworldin30days.com/

I'm glad to have learned of the charity the were supporting. I'm sad about the circumstances that led me to learn about it.

Interesting thoughts. I believe in total freedom as long as you don't hurt others. Unfortunately our government masters don't agree with me. Things like this don't help. Since it happened way far I hope it has no effect on us. RIP

GumpAir wrote:Yup.... Money always makes up for skill and experience.

Gump

^^ This! ^^

highroad wrote:I think we need to be careful how we display our emotions on this event.

I did not know Babar, but many people that I highly respect in the aviation community knew him well. Babar was an ambassador for GA, and those who had the privilege to meet him or be influenced by him through aviation, are crushed by his loss.

It appears that Babar operated on a financial level that most cannot comprehend, therefore I don't doubt that this flight has and will benefit charity.

Babar and his son were as prepared as I believe anyone could be to fly a single engine airplane around the globe. Specific training was conducted at high gross weights to prepare for future fuel loads of the trip, as well as over water ditching etc.

Risk: Another factor that many of us don't understand or take into account is culture. Until you have walked in someone's shoes, there is no way to fully comprehend what is "normal" and "acceptable" to them.

RIP

Well said Brent. My least favorite aspect of pilots forums is the posthumous slamming and subsequent piling on against people who were killed in accidents, most often with very little factual knowledge about what happened, the people involved etc.

mtv wrote:
When I was in Cold Bay, AK (look it up) I landed one day, and there sat a Cessna Ag Truck spray plane. I thought "What the?". I approached the pilot and asked him where he was off to.....his response: Australia, Mate. I asked how he'd get there. Response: Cold Bay, Adak, Midway, a couple of atolls in the Pacific, Papau, New Guinea, Australia.......

This was before (way before) GPS or aviation LORAN. 1200 mile overwater legs, looking for some tiny atoll out there in the middle of nowhere.....with no alternates.

And he wasn't trying for any kind of record.....

I Don't look for logic in these deals.

MTV

Is that the end of the story MTV?

Geezzzz.... I just realized this gentleman and I worked together for the same company at the Oak Ridge National Lab. We both had our airplanes based at the same airport for about a year. I just did not initially connect the names until our company just put out a condolence statement. Good guy for sure! So sad.......
RIP

Is that the end of the story MTV?

Maybe, maybe not....http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/1998/November/1/Proficient-Pilot-(11)

Great find Karmutzen

I spent a couple of months at Cold Bay one weekend. Not my favorite Alaskan adventure.

We all have our risk tolerance level--mine's different from yours and the next guy's. "What? Single engine with only 180hp in the Colorado mountains? Why, I wouldn't do it with less than 300hp." "You do IFR single engine? You're crazy! I wouldn't do it with less than 2 engines." "You're not really going to land there, are you? Why, that's not even paved!" "You're not really going to land at Salt Lake City International, are you? Isn't that a Class B? Do they really allow little airplanes to land there?" Or to bring it current as I searched for a spot between hundreds of boats on Lake Union in Seattle a couple of weeks ago, I might have said to my instructor, "You don't expect me to land down there, do you? I only have 3 hours of seaplane time so far!"

I've lost track which year, but 3 or 4 years ago I was camped at the South 40 (North Fond du Lac) at OSH, when a Mooney taxied into the row behind mine with an odd tail number. After he'd unloaded, I went to visit and help. His tail number was from Holland! And he'd flown to OSH from Holland! His whole back seat area was one huge gas tank bag. Only 4 legs: Holland to Greenland to Newfoundland to OSH. Guessing, this guy was about 60 years old, not a huge risk taker--but he'd taken a risk I'd never even consider dreaming about let alone doing.

So I'm not about to second guess others' risk tolerance. I know my own, and to some, I'm a horrible risk taker; to others, I'm a namby pamby. But for me it's just right. I hope for others, theirs is just right, too.

Prayers for the family--it's got to be tough losing both father and son at the same time.

Cary

well said, Cary

According to this report published by AOPA the crash occurred at night, just after takeoff, about a mile offshore. Reported winds gusting to 40mph.
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/July/24/World-record-bid-ends-in-fatal-crash

Scolopax wrote:

mtv wrote:
When I was in Cold Bay, AK (look it up) I landed one day, and there sat a Cessna Ag Truck spray plane. I thought "What the?". I approached the pilot and asked him where he was off to.....his response: Australia, Mate. I asked how he'd get there. Response: Cold Bay, Adak, Midway, a couple of atolls in the Pacific, Papau, New Guinea, Australia.......

This was before (way before) GPS or aviation LORAN. 1200 mile overwater legs, looking for some tiny atoll out there in the middle of nowhere.....with no alternates.

And he wasn't trying for any kind of record.....

I Don't look for logic in these deals.

MTV

Is that the end of the story MTV?

Oops, sorry.....no, the gent I met in CDB actually made it to Australia with that airplane. This was a little earlier than he one in the AOPA account.

As others have said, everyone's risk tolerance differs.....Early in my flying career, I flew over a lot of open North Pacific, though nothing like a crossing. Never liked it much, but it was part of the job. There's no way I'd do those same flights today.

MTV