Backcountry Pilot • C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabilizer

C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabilizer

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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

BazzLow wrote:It's probably worth inspecting every 10-20 years. My issue is the time between inspections. This is a big job and you need to strip paint to properly inspect.

The way we perform damage tolerance analysis and how inspection intervals are typical set are through DT and crack growth analysis. In the FAA world we grow a crack using a load spectrum from critical fasteners assuming there was one there during production. We continually check the residual strength of the structure with the crack until it grows large enough to shows zero residual strength. Then we take the amount of time it took to grow the crack, divide it in half and that's the inspection interval.

Now what's better than analysis is statsical data over time. Has there ever been an in flight structural failure of a tail? My guess no. That means the youngest airplanes have been flying with adequate residual strength for 40 years. The oldest for 67. Assuming the above logic and being ultra conservative the tail should be inspected every 20 years. We also define inspection methods (visual vs various ndi) based on the size of the crack that would cause zero residual strength.

I think the tail inspection is worth doing but every 5 years is wrong. Either the FAA published the proposal at 5 year intervals to look like they are being reasonable when they "compromise" to 10 year intervals or some engineer at the FAA pulled 5 years out of thin air. It doesn't line up with their aircraft certification regs.

Are you going to file a comment? My first thoughts were also that 5 years is too often. I don't understand why there is chronological time based part to it. Should be flight hours based only.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

C180_guy wrote:
BazzLow wrote:It's probably worth inspecting every 10-20 years. My issue is the time between inspections. This is a big job and you need to strip paint to properly inspect.

The way we perform damage tolerance analysis and how inspection intervals are typical set are through DT and crack growth analysis. In the FAA world we grow a crack using a load spectrum from critical fasteners assuming there was one there during production. We continually check the residual strength of the structure with the crack until it grows large enough to shows zero residual strength. Then we take the amount of time it took to grow the crack, divide it in half and that's the inspection interval.

Now what's better than analysis is statsical data over time. Has there ever been an in flight structural failure of a tail? My guess no. That means the youngest airplanes have been flying with adequate residual strength for 40 years. The oldest for 67. Assuming the above logic and being ultra conservative the tail should be inspected every 20 years. We also define inspection methods (visual vs various ndi) based on the size of the crack that would cause zero residual strength.

I think the tail inspection is worth doing but every 5 years is wrong. Either the FAA published the proposal at 5 year intervals to look like they are being reasonable when they "compromise" to 10 year intervals or some engineer at the FAA pulled 5 years out of thin air. It doesn't line up with their aircraft certification regs.

Are you going to file a comment? My first thoughts were also that 5 years is too often. I don't understand why there is chronological time based part to it. Should be flight hours based only.
That exfoliated attach fitting pictured further up this thread was a function of chronological time, not time in service.

In the seaplane world corrosion back there worries me more than cracks.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

Halestorm, Is intergranular corrosion part of the problem with the exfoliated one in this post. I have one that has to be really old but never used yet and it looks like new. If intergranular was going to be a problem would it still look this good? Thanks
Image
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

That fitting looks like new. In my experience there are subtle bulges associated with intergranular before it erupts to the surface. As long as you don’t let moisture sit against it for long periods of time it should be fine. If I were going to install it in a seaplane it would get etch/alodine, epoxy primer and polyurethane top coat before it went on.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:The fix for any issues is here... https://www.cessnarepairs.com/
A lot cheaper than the factory parts...

I have done this inspection several times by removing the rear hinge bolts, disconnect the rudder cables and elevator then jack the horizontal up as far as possible.. Using a good light, mirror and video boroscope I can get a good look inside everything that's in there... Takes a maximum of a couple hours to do, if even that long...

Now if they release an AD that requires the removal of the vertical and horizontal to inspect I will do that for future inspections, however, I do not see it taking longer than 3-4 hours.. With a couple of guys the vertical and rudder can come off in one piece with half a dozen bolts and a few wires. Elevators come off real quick with the right tools and the horizontal is 4 bolts.. Takes about 45 minutes to an hour to remove all of it.. inspect and put back together replacing any worn parts along the way..

Brian


Says the kit is for 180 and 185. Hope it is also good for early 182's
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

Ok...may be a simple answer...but how hard would it be to machine a few of these....this looks like a very simple piece part....
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

Cost allocation for QMI hockey stick kit:
parts $295
FAA paperwork $2700

I'm glad they did it, way more cost effective than buying Cessna parts.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

-0-
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

.
***Mon 02 NOV 2020 update***

U.S. FAA AD 2020-21-22 adopted, effective 07 DEC 2020:

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/c8c585a037fe19ee862586140053ce37/$FILE/2020-21-22.pdf
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

I was wondering what was going on with that.
Thanks for posting.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

I still don't understand the 5 calendar year thing. How does Aluminum crack just sitting there. Time in service makes sense. Will be a whole lot of pencil whipping going on for airplanes will low hours since last inspection.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

C180_guy wrote:I still don't understand the 5 calendar year thing. How does Aluminum crack just sitting there. Time in service makes sense. Will be a whole lot of pencil whipping going on for airplanes will low hours since last inspection.
It’s not just cracks, the requirement is to inspect for corrosion as well. In certain parts of the world and/or operating environments corrosion is a big deal.

I’m certain no one associated with this forum would pencil whip an AD compliance, that would be a willful falsification of the aircraft records.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

Why not just issue an AD that says inspect every airplane every year for corrosion? Oh yeah, that is called an annual inspection.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

C180_guy wrote:Why not just issue an AD that says inspect every airplane every year for corrosion? Oh yeah, that is called an annual inspection.

Hmm...surprisingly (to me, ref https://www.ecfr.gov ), corrosion is not specifically mentioned in

"APPENDIX D TO PART 43—SCOPE AND DETAIL OF ITEMS (AS APPLICABLE TO THE PARTICULAR AIRCRAFT) TO BE INCLUDED IN ANNUAL AND 100-HOUR INSPECTIONS

[**perhaps FAA considers corrosion an "apparent defect", "poor condition", "distortion", or "evidence of failure"?:**]

(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.
(b) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the fuselage and hull group:

(2) Systems and components—for improper installation, apparent defects, and unsatisfactory operation.

(e) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the landing gear group:
(1) All units—for poor condition and insecurity of attachment.
...
(3) Linkages, trusses, and members—for undue or excessive wear fatigue, and distortion.
...
(g) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) all components and systems that make up the complete empennage assembly for poor general condition, fabric or skin deterioration, distortion, evidence of failure, insecure attachment, improper component installation, and improper component operation...."

Combine the preceding with unfamiliarity with movable stabilizer, tailwheel & off-airport loads, restricted access, an aging fleet, and AD seems almost assured: (ref https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2039-7D.pdf)

"5....Pursuant to its authority, the FAA issues ADs when an unsafe condition exists in a product (aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance) and is likely to exist or develop in other products of the same type design. ADs are issued by the FAA to notify aircraft owners and operators of an unsafe condition and to require action(s) to resolve the unsafe condition."
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

I think an SAIB would have sufficed here.
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

Well I'm glad to see the FAA agrees that credit can be taken for compliance with the service bulletin.

Request for Credit for Previous Actions
AOPA and two individual commenters requested the FAA revise paragraph (h) of the AD to
allow credit for previous actions performed by using SEL-55-01 if the airplane was also inspected for
loose or sheared rivets. The commenters suggested there are no significant differences between SEL55-01
and the proposed AD. AOPA also requested credit for actions performed during the prior
annual inspection.
The FAA agrees that operators may take credit for previous compliance with SEL-55-01;
however, a change to the AD is unnecessary. Paragraph (f) of this AD requires compliance unless
already done. Thus, the AD already allows credit for the initial inspection specified in SEL-55-01 if
completed before the effective date of the AD. Similarly, operators may take credit for actions
performed during the prior annual inspection if those actions are identical to the procedures specified
in SEL-55-01.
The FAA did not make any changes to the proposed AD based on these comments.

(bold mine)
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

Has an AD been issued or not?

MW
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

185Midwest wrote:Has an AD been issued or not?
MW


Yes. See this post above.

iPat wrote:.
***Mon 02 NOV 2020 update***

U.S. FAA AD 2020-21-22 adopted, effective 07 DEC 2020:

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/c8c585a037fe19ee862586140053ce37/$FILE/2020-21-22.pdf
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Re: C180, C185, early C182: AD NPRM tailcone & horiz stabili

The rear horizontal hinge mount pictured earlier in this thread, is attached with (3) bolts which sandwich about (5) pieces of aluminum together including the rear spar, a doubler, and the skins. Since the horizontal stabilizer slopes back toward these mounts, its a great place for moisture to get trapped. Even though this area and the (2) aft bulkheads are hard to inspect, its easy enough to stick a straw in the nozzle of a can of Corrosion-X, and spray these areas well every year or two. The treatment will work its way between the faying edges and stop or prevent corrosion which is a big part of the problem.
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