I can't add much to the discussion of what to wear, but this discussion reminds me of a time when I was learning to fly in Anchorage, winter of 72-73. I had a client who was a pilot in the helicopter rescue squadron who was so very pleased with my advice on something that he asked if there was anything he could do for me. We couldn't accept any pay, but it was common to do favors, so I said I'd love a ride in one of their Hueys. I often saw them hover-taxiing, because their hangar was directly across the ramp from the Aeroclub hangar, and I often saw them do autorotation practice, because my office overlooked the approach end to Elmendorf's 34, which they commonly used.

He told me to show up on such and such a day and time, in fatigues. So I did, but when he saw my boots (standard USAF issue leather boots), he said that they wouldn't do--did I have any bunny boots? I did, since I'd driven the motorhome that day so that my wife could have the car, and they were stored in the trunk of the motorhome. Problem: it was about -25 F that morning, and it had been down to below -30 F that night. So when I put on those frozen bunny boots, my feet went instantly numb. I literally hobbled out to the helicopter.

The helicopter was warm in no time after we took off (it had been in a heated hangar, so it wasn't cold-soaked), and by the time we'd crossed Cook Inlet toward Mt. Spurr, my feet were starting to thaw out. But if we'd had to set down anywhere before then, I couldn't have walked 20 feet!

The only thoughts I have on clothing for the cold is to wear enough but not too much, so that you don't hurry the preflight because you're anxious to get out of the cold, and you don't get sweaty in the process. My hands are especially sensitive, because I froze them on a survey crew while I was in college, so I have some pretty warm Carhartt leather insulated gloves. I'm usually layered in real cold, with a down vest under a heavy jacket. If the preflight actions cause me to start getting too warm, I doff the heavy jacket. I'm warm enough in the airplane that either the vest or the jacket is sufficient, not both.

Cary

Sailing foul weather gear is an excellent outer layer. If you can round Cape Horn in an open cockpit boat and brave the Southern Ocean for a month or two, it's good enough.

Under garments will depend on temperature, humidity, and perceived comfort:

Willamette Pass 2015:


Going to AK...

Very interesting thread.

My father wore mukluks (no sole whatsoever, just hide boots) with felt liners as his winter boots for many cold winters when I was growing up. I still remember how bad they smelled when they were new. He bought them up near Fort Nelson so I assume they were caribou or moose hide.

I had never heard of bunny boots, so I've learned something tonight.

I'm not a fan of the puffy feel of down so tend toward fleece and wool but acknowledge down is second only to fur for absolute insulation. I love the handwarmers and sprinkle them liberally through my vehicles, packs and tool kits.

The best mittens I've found are the Kuiu down mittens. With a decent glove underneath they are incredible.

I LOVED my arctic mittens. Behind my bunny boots they were my second favorite piece of kit up north. I was pretty sad when I had to turn them in. Mine were grey but otherwise the same as these.

https://www.amazon.com/N-4B-U-S-Militar ... B000J38CZ8


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This has probably been mentioned already, but being able to REMOVE warm clothing easily is worthy of note. If you have to take your boots off to take a cold weather suit off because you're over heating, that isn't good. You want to be able to sequentially strip down as needed to adjust, the layered method. Staying warm is pretty easy, doing it with the above in mind takes a bit more planning.

In a rural area, just look at what the local older farmers are wearing...they figured it out long ago.

albravo wrote:My father wore mukluks (no sole whatsoever, just hide boots) with felt liners as his winter boots for many cold winters when I was growing up. I still remember how bad they smelled when they were new. He bought them up near Fort Nelson so I assume they were caribou or moose hide.

Ahh ... the smell of smoke-tanned moose hide! Maybe it's an acquired taste, but I love that smell.

We still wear those kind of mukluks today in the north. Around here they are caribou with moose hide soles, but for flying I prefer the Steger mukluks with a sole because otherwise my feet get sore from the rudder pedals.

CamTom12 wrote:I LOVED my arctic mittens. Behind my bunny boots they were my second favorite piece of kit up north. I was pretty sad when I had to turn them in. Mine were grey but otherwise the same as these.

https://www.amazon.com/N-4B-U-S-Militar ... B000J38CZ8


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Yes, those are the mittens I always kept on a lanyard around my neck. Need to do some fine work? She'd the mitts, letting them drop, do your task with the finger gloves, then slide your hands back into the mitts. And they're relatively cheap.

MTV

NunavutPA-12 wrote:
Ahh ... the smell of smoke-tanned moose hide! Maybe it's an acquired taste, but I love that smell.

Agree 100%. Maybe because it reminds me of my father and definitely because it reminds me of hunting and fishing, I love that smell now. Definitely an acquired taste.

mtv wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:I LOVED my arctic mittens. Behind my bunny boots they were my second favorite piece of kit up north. I was pretty sad when I had to turn them in. Mine were grey but otherwise the same as these.

https://www.amazon.com/N-4B-U-S-Militar ... B000J38CZ8


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Yes, those are the mittens I always kept on a lanyard around my neck. Need to do some fine work? She'd the mitts, letting them drop, do your task with the finger gloves, then slide your hands back into the mitts. And they're relatively cheap.

MTV

Plus if you need to air out your boots/socks/feet in camp you can put them on your feet to shuffle around in. We called them "monkey feet."

CamTom12 wrote:Plus if you need to air out your boots/socks/feet in camp you can put them on your feet to shuffle around in. We called them "monkey feet."

Good point. The best footwear has felt liners that can be removed and dried. It's necessary to do this daily or your feet will be cold. Unfortunately, in a survival situation you may have some difficulty drying anything out. Tents tend to be quite damp and it's difficult to dry things in front of a fire without burning them.

Someone else suggested taking along a thermos of something hot. Good idea. We favour hot, sweet tea in the north country, but there may be better options. Perhaps hot soup. That at least has some nourishment.

NunavutPA-12 wrote:Someone else suggested taking along a thermos of something hot. Good idea. We favour hot, sweet tea in the north country, but there may be better options. Perhaps hot soup. That at least has some nourishment.

On a different but related note, I was surprised recently to learn that warm liquid is NOT recommended for hypothermia victims. Apparently it works to distribute scarce heat out to the extremities at the expense of the core. That must have changed at some point because I definitely remember being told warm liquids are very important for hypothermia treatment.

Recommendations for warm liquids vary a bit still, mostly depending on the extent of hypothermia progression. If you really want to dig into it, it isn't as simple as yes or no...

I mentioned the thermos of hot liquids as a step to help prevent the lowering of body core temps and provide hydration and energy. I've always flown with a thermos in winter and even used it in flight between stops to provide what I suggest the benefits are. If stuck in overflow or after a precautionary landing it can provide some relief and a break to think things over.

I have no idea how to treat an already hypothermic patient...only how I choose to deal with cold and potential hypothermia at some point.

If your pee is yellow drink the fellow.

GAP

I wear what I plan to crash in.. Good gear can't have a price tag put on it. I too have worn the insulated carharts etc, but if you get them wet your screwed. My avid is pretty tight in the foot well so I cant wear bunny boots but my go to boots for snowmachining and flying are the Cabelas snowyrivers. Low cost, waterproof and my feet never get col in them even when riding at -30.
Good gore-tex pants and coat. I wear an under armour base layer and then fleece pants / jacket under the goretex pants / coat. It is light weight and very flexible yet very warm. Motor fist or Klim gear are my go to. Staying dry in wet snow or rain sucks and they always keep me dry. I had one flight that I blew an exhaust gasket at -30 and had to fly with the door open to keep from going loopy and I stayed pretty warm.

Another thing about snowmachine gear is that most coats have zippered vent panels in them. If you have to get out of the plane and do any work (getting unstuck etc) you can open the vents so you stay dry and dont overheat.

Military GENIII ECWCS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE_FtP_7tN0 Or maybe something similar?

Went on an extended flight/research trip one Spring up to the Noatak River, Alaska. Self contained for days in -30 to -40F. Had a variety of clothing and camping gear plus propane heat sources for the C-185 and small tent/Kerosun oil stove. I wore a Carhartt coverall out of convenience as we did lots of walking and ice drilling, plus common military surplus parka and winter pants.

Once the Carhartt got wet from perspiration it remained on and in that clothing and we didn't have a common wood stove for heat or a large enough shelter to air things out. Same for the sleeping bag. Now it'd be an Alaska Tent and Tarp Arctic Oven and wood stove or don't go. And clothing similar to the ECWCS system.

GAP

akavidflyer wrote:I wear what I plan to crash in.. Good gear can't have a price tag put on it. I too have worn the insulated carharts etc, but if you get them wet your screwed. My avid is pretty tight in the foot well so I cant wear bunny boots but my go to boots for snowmachining and flying are the Cabelas snowyrivers. Low cost, waterproof and my feet never get col in them even when riding at -30.
Good gore-tex pants and coat. I wear an under armour base layer and then fleece pants / jacket under the goretex pants / coat. It is light weight and very flexible yet very warm. Motor fist or Klim gear are my go to. Staying dry in wet snow or rain sucks and they always keep me dry. I had one flight that I blew an exhaust gasket at -30 and had to fly with the door open to keep from going loopy and I stayed pretty warm.

Another thing about snowmachine gear is that most coats have zippered vent panels in them. If you have to get out of the plane and do any work (getting unstuck etc) you can open the vents so you stay dry and dont overheat.

I was thinking that my MF gear would be what I would wear if I was flying in the winter. Have you tried their boots? I have their Stomper 2 and my feet haven't been cold since I started wearing them, but it isn't nearly as cold here. The thing I've always wondered about is their built in, non-removable, insulation. They don't have a liner like all my previous winter boots, but they haven't gotten wet inside like my previous boots either.

Plus, I'll have seat warmers in the Bearhawk.

Any boot that allows moisture to compromise insulation is a concern if prolonged exposure is a risk. Same for all the clothing.

Boots like Muck's foam core or military bunny boots (moisture vapor barrier footwear) will not be as much a risk providing inner liners like socks and insoles are changed frequently.

One preventative to moisture egress from the skin is plastic-like material. Food wrap material or supple garbage bags can contain moisture if placed next to the skin. The days of dry grass as insulation in boots being periodically discarded are few.

GAP

akavidflyer wrote:I wear what I plan to crash in.. Good gear can't have a price tag put on it. I too have worn the insulated carharts etc, but if you get them wet your screwed. My avid is pretty tight in the foot well so I cant wear bunny boots but my go to boots for snowmachining and flying are the Cabelas snowyrivers. Low cost, waterproof and my feet never get col in them even when riding at -30.
Good gore-tex pants and coat. I wear an under armour base layer and then fleece pants / jacket under the goretex pants / coat. It is light weight and very flexible yet very warm. Motor fist or Klim gear are my go to. Staying dry in wet snow or rain sucks and they always keep me dry. I had one flight that I blew an exhaust gasket at -30 and had to fly with the door open to keep from going loopy and I stayed pretty warm.

Another thing about snowmachine gear is that most coats have zippered vent panels in them. If you have to get out of the plane and do any work (getting unstuck etc) you can open the vents so you stay dry and dont overheat.

Didn't find snowy rivers.... are these the ones ? http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas- ... 752273.uts

I can't add much. But I will add this. As a 33 year career fireMAN we were issued synthetic type shirts and pants that would burn! These were worn under bunker gear. Nobody ever got burned with this set up. So the guys that said they wear non flammable clothing next to their skin and synthetic flammable on the outer layer, good luck.

I am just your average recreational flyer. It doesn't that cold here in Oregon. Hiking boots with wool socks, Pendleton wool shirt, Carhartt insulated coveralls, synthetic stocking cap, a variety of gloves and mittens. Do I dress for fire? NO. Should I be more careful? probably. Will I change? probably not. But we have beat this dead horse already.

Cheers...Rob

red sled wrote:

akavidflyer wrote:I wear what I plan to crash in.. Good gear can't have a price tag put on it. I too have worn the insulated carharts etc, but if you get them wet your screwed. My avid is pretty tight in the foot well so I cant wear bunny boots but my go to boots for snowmachining and flying are the Cabelas snowyrivers. Low cost, waterproof and my feet never get col in them even when riding at -30.
Good gore-tex pants and coat. I wear an under armour base layer and then fleece pants / jacket under the goretex pants / coat. It is light weight and very flexible yet very warm. Motor fist or Klim gear are my go to. Staying dry in wet snow or rain sucks and they always keep me dry. I had one flight that I blew an exhaust gasket at -30 and had to fly with the door open to keep from going loopy and I stayed pretty warm.

Another thing about snowmachine gear is that most coats have zippered vent panels in them. If you have to get out of the plane and do any work (getting unstuck etc) you can open the vents so you stay dry and dont overheat.

Didn't find snowy rivers.... are these the ones ? http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas- ... 752273.uts

Yes, they must have changed the name at some point. My ex wife had cold feet no matter what I bought her till I got her these boot. Comfortable and warm but not overly large.