Hi BCP Folks,

There is a lot of talk of the electrification of all forms of transportation and the more I think about it, some forms backcountry flying would benefit from an electric stol aircraft. I'm not talking about anything bigger than a C170, even that might be a stretch. But for the 2 place kit planes, I think there would be some huge advantages. The main one that comes to mind is peak horsepower, the trend is that electric out-performs combustion in the HP department but not in the range department.

A disadvantage is not being able to change the weight by flying with less fuel. I often fly with 2hrs of fuel or less if I'm just playing.

Has anybody considered what a conversion to electric would look like? Is anybody on here doing it (obviously in the experimental category)?
If your engine needed rebuild and electric conversion was a "viable" option(I know it isn't) , would you? Is this electrification just a fad like ripped jeans and GAMI100? Just kidding don't get distracted by the last question.

Marshall

Maybe if there was a quantum leap in battery tech, charging AND a way to make tons of energy for “free” very very quickly


As it stands on my offshore sailboat, ice cubes are a luxury and the idea of spinning up the air conditioning off solar alone is but a dream, outside of cranking over a diesel generator

Spinning up a electric motor with enough power to lift a plane with even just 2 people, the tech isn’t there right now for that to be anything but a REAL WORLD maybe someday concept, and aviation wise electric has a loooooong way to go, like huge quantum leap in energy production and storage before it is even remotely competitive with a gas/Diesel engine

Pay load, range, weight, turn around time, electric has a very very long ways to go

Two person 1 hour electric trainer is already in use. Trade out the ballistic chute for bigger tires you will be good to go. Conversion on small stuff will be difficult due to weight. Better to just build from scratch. https://flypft.com
DENNY

DENNY wrote:Two person 1 hour electric trainer is already in use. Trade out the ballistic chute for bigger tires you will be good to go. Conversion on small stuff will be difficult due to weight. Better to just build from scratch. https://flypft.com
DENNY

1hr (with 30min reserves)

https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/prod ... /#tab-id-2


Night time it’s 45min (0.7) of flight time

Going through my first logbooks first page



Without even getting into the time it takes to recharge, and the difference in that 1hr if you’re doing pattern work, seems like a frustrating way to get through pilot training

Also at 85kts cruise and 1hr legal daytime runtime, with a cross country being 50nm, it’s impossible to do a bare min legal flight school out and back cross country without having find a place to charge it, that might be hard,
and wait around for not sure how long for it to charge


The electric stuff is cool, just has a very long ways to go before it’s ready for prime time

Yep 1 hour. The one hour does not include the 30 min reserve that the plane has (Google is your friend). So that would mean you would only need 1 more hour long flight if you manage your flights correctly. It would also be real flying not sitting on the taxiway for 10 min waiting for the oil temp to come up. before every flight. If you do a Google search you will fine long range electric glider hybrid aircraft. Nothing fits my flight profile now but for a lot of pilots that only fly less than one hour at a time with light loads the plane is already here. Give it 10 years and the battery tech will improve enough to extend the range others need.
DENNY

I don't see it until a next level battery technology comes.

But an electric STOL drag racer is just dying to be built.

I think Bob Barrows is building an electric single seater?

daedaluscan wrote:I don't see it until a next level battery technology comes.

But an electric STOL drag racer is just dying to be built.

I think Bob Barrows is building an electric single seater?

Yup, a stol dragster would be a good use of the current tech, that sounds like a hoot!

I also love my quad copter

DENNY wrote:Yep 1 hour. The one hour does not include the 30 min reserve that the plane has (Google is your friend). So that would mean you would only need 1 more hour long flight if you manage your flights correctly. It would also be real flying not sitting on the taxiway for 10 min waiting for the oil temp to come up. before every flight. If you do a Google search you will fine long range electric glider hybrid aircraft. Nothing fits my flight profile now but for a lot of pilots that only fly less than one hour at a time with light loads the plane is already here. Give it 10 years and the battery tech will improve enough to extend the range others need.
DENNY

The charge time is still a major bummer, had a Uber with a new electric car a month or is ago, it was a hr+ trip for work, the guy had to stop to charge and he was a conservative driver, ended up having lunch then walking around for a while, while the thing sucked electric, and thankfully it was a fast charger, but having to live your life around the car to that extent, and that’s from someone with classic English cars lol

Now take that and figure trying to run a [slow] 110 extension cord into the pilots lounge? I carry ropes due to not being able to even find tie downs on many ramps, I can’t recall the last 110VAC plug I saw on the ramp


Tech wise it’s hard to say, tech progression isn’t always linear, battery and charge and energy production advancements might come in as mile leaps, or they might come along as a millimeters crawl

I think we can all agree that electric aircraft aren't going to be mainstream this year, or in the next 5 for that matter.

I also think that the argument that there is nowhere to charge them is a valid concern, however not a impossible engineering challenge. Consider the infrastructure required for fuel tanks, pumps, spill containment etc. That all had to be purchased and installed to meet demand.

As for where to source enough electricity, again a valid concern now but not a show stopper in terms of expanding the grid and generation to keep up with demand. If electric is viable, the infrastructure will follow suit.

It's theoretically possible that in 5 years, about when I expect to need a rebuild, there might be an electric option. My expectations of my aircraft are low, I fly a C140 so I'm not going far, fast or in style. If I only had 2 hours range but 50 more hp on takeoff I would have to start thinking hard about this kinda stuff.

I'm interested to see what starts to become available and how it changes GA. It will be entertaining when someone enters an electric in a STOL comp for sure.

Think swappable belly pod mounted battery.

Think rolling rack, rolls under aircraft, drop battery, spin rack around and latch charged battery into belly. Quicker then fueling tanks!

Belly pod mounted allows jettisoning a hot battery pack, I know I know, keep Z’s Stoke in mind instead of wineing please. Loosing a hundred pounds at the CG in a T crate wing loaded aircraft makes that 30mph off field landing vary survivable and of course not having the flammability isse of all those electrons is a big plus when shit gets kinetic. Think heavy offloading thousands of pounds of fuel in flight during an emergency before landing.

There are more then a hand full of aircraft and motors out there already, google is your friend.

The Cessna 150 platform doesn’t have enough wing but the T crate is perfect according to my back of the napkin math about 8 years ago. Motors are a lot more efficient today.

Ans yes battery tech will improve, could be tomorrow, next year, or five years from now, but its coming fast.


Rocket

rocket wrote:Think swappable belly pod mounted battery.

Think rolling rack, rolls under aircraft, drop battery, spin rack around and latch charged battery into belly. Quicker then fueling tanks!

Belly pod mounted allows jettisoning a hot battery pack, I know I know, keep Z’s Stoke in mind instead of wineing please. Loosing a hundred pounds at the CG in a T crate wing loaded aircraft makes that 30mph off field landing vary survivable and of course not having the flammability isse of all those electrons is a big plus when shit gets kinetic. Think heavy offloading thousands of pounds of fuel in flight during an emergency before landing.

There are more then a hand full of aircraft and motors out there already, google is your friend.

The Cessna 150 platform doesn’t have enough wing but the T crate is perfect according to my back of the napkin math about 8 years ago. Motors are a lot more efficient today.

Ans yes battery tech will improve, could be tomorrow, next year, or five years from now, but its coming fast.


Rocket

The price of a NON FAA Tesla battery pack is like $20,000, so with the difference between a car starter and the same aviation starter being like what a 3x multiplier?

So $60,000.00 per T cart battery pack, plus how much for the track battery changing robot? 20k? We’ll have 2 batteries at least and the swapper, unlike my gas tanks the batteries only have so many charges before they are off to the toxic waste dump

So I’m at $180,000.00 just in batteries and the changer

We still have to convert the plane, and find power to charge the batteries

Guessing this is going to be like a quarter million + dollar t cart?

Vs buying a 30k t cart and pumping gas when you need it?

So I’m paying 10x as much for the plane, now what happens if I get a wild hair and want to fly it across the country?

10x the cost for less capability

Tesla model 3 has been out for half a decade, it’s range and charge time per KW it’s not much better from 2017 to now, the tech got better, but over half a decade centimeters better

Regardless the state of the tech right now, there are a few advantages of electric drive anything:

1. Simpler mechanically–just not as many moving parts in an electric motor drive. And they enjoy the non-recip advantages of a turbine where they don't shake themselves apart as readily.

2. Electricity is an amalgam energy state, the great equalizer that you can convert chemical or mechanical energy storage to. You can make it by burning bunker fuel or feeding hay to a donkey on a mill wheel turning a generator. Kinda neat when you think of it as a multi-source drive.

Cons:

1. Maintenance will be a long shift as more of the tech becomes software-driven. Instead of worn parts you have bugs or electrical/grounding issues. This happens even in conventional ICE powered aircraft though today. The amount of systems-level logic that can be programmed though is...limitless. The con is the same challenge the Mercury 7 astronauts argued.

2. Batteries is a weird non-consumable concept. A hot-swap program at airports could eliminate layovers but then you end up with the propane/welding gas tank analogy where you end up with some other crappy/tired batteries after you just exchanged your brand new packs. As for energy density over weight, there's still no competitor to gasoline. Maybe it evens out a little when you consider that a Lycoming O-540 is 400+ pounds whereas an electric motor of similar power output is probably lighter.

3. People associated electric anything with cleaner emissions but we know that's not necessarily true. The "long tailpipe" concept has the emissions occurring at the other end of the state at the gas-turbine power plant. Can't really count that as a pro. It's a con because it becomes an argument for your political identity and people endlessly argue over it.

I will say that I find radio control flying to be much more convenient without sticky nitro fuel on stuff. And quieter for sure. Maybe that will scale in time. I read that there are something like 200 startups today working on electric pax aircraft. Many will die off but some will create something very useable.

I think the innovation is going to come faster than any of us think and it will not likely look anything like current fixed or rotary aircraft - more like drones or that atrocious blackfly thingie at Oshkosh.

But swappable batteries can solve the charge time problems and add utility. And don't expect this to apply at all to cross country transportation. That's going to come from automated electric trucks before aircraft hauling pax.

Electric airplanes are most likely, in my view going to come about for short range personal transportation around town - if at all - first. Probably vtol.

It seems weird, but my local airport - the fbo is already installed an electric charging station on the ramp - not for cars but for airplanes and the rumors are a pipistrel electric airplane dealer/rep is going to be here soon. I think it's cool. Imma keep zoomin' in my skywagon tho and hauling meat missiles to the mountains in the pawnee till the dino juice is all gone. Haha!

I’m 51. We will NOT be flying the backcountry in electric planes in my lifetime. Certainly not with all the gear I take on an October hunting trip

Period, end of story!!!!

Besides, I like the smell of 100ll, and I like making noise!

NineThreeKilo wrote:..........
Spinning up a electric motor with enough power to lift a plane with even just 2 people, the tech isn’t there right now....

https://www.eviation.com/

first flight:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 0_LQdwphiP

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:..........
Spinning up a electric motor with enough power to lift a plane with even just 2 people, the tech isn’t there right now....

https://www.eviation.com/

first flight:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 0_LQdwphiP

250nm DAY VFR RANGE?

For a business aircraft it’s always listed as NBAA IFR range
Plus a C152 has like a 600nm VFR range

I wonder if those who invested in that electric aircraft had much experience in operating aircraft for a living

Always cool to see a new design ground, but based on the specs I’m not sure where in real world aviation that plane fits a practical need other than it just exists

Electric airplanes for backcountry flying with good range and useful load are a ways off. With all the recent advances with hydrogen storage in the form of metal hydrates (no high pressures and no insanely low temperatures), practical electric aircraft may wind up with fuel cells, not batteries. Time will tell which technology wins out. In the meantime, there are niches in aviation where electric power already makes practical sense. The eXenos motor glider uses the motor, battery pack and motor controller from a Zero electric motorcycle. The power requirements to launch a motor glider are small, and this particular combo winds up with 2.5 hours endurance (2 hours flying with a 30 minute reserve). That is more than enough to launch the motorglider, shut down the engine for some soaring, and still have enough juice to get back to the airport if the lift disappears. You can see a video and read about it here: https://www.sonexaircraft.com/e-xenos-kitplanes-aug-2021/

A more advanced idea was presented by at the Sustainable Skies Aviation Symposium a couple of years ago. Greg Cole from Windward Performance (a sailplane design and fabrication outfit in Redmond, Oregon) designed the Goshawk as a 2 seat, side by side electric motor glider. This is a higher performance sailplane with a 35:1 L/D compared to the 24:1 for the eXenos. His modeling shows the plane could easily land with more charge in its batteries than it took off with. By dropping the nose of the plane when in lift, the freewheeling prop could spin the motor as a generator and actually add charge to the battery pack. When flying along a long ridge line in updraft lift, that would provide a substantial boost to the energy storage. His presentation at the symposium is here: http://sustainableaviation.org/sas2018/session/honorary-paul-maccready-lecture-2018-doing-more-with-much-less-and-where-it-has-taken-me/. News on the Goshawk has faded from view. I don't know if Greg has been working on more profitable projects as a designer or what is going on, but the design concept seems valid.

No, electric motor gliders are not do anything aircraft, but they are a practical bridge to an electric future that includes more capable planes that never need an oil change or ever have to have the plugs cleaned because of lead deposits. I don't know how many more years I'll be interested in hauling camping gear to the backcountry just so I can sleep on the ground. If/when I give up airplane camping, an electric motor glider may be my next play toy!

Electric Zenith. Not the greatest range in the world -- but the dude is using it to deliver medical stuff in Africa where the drive between two villages that are only 20 nm apart would be 16 hours if do-able that time of year at all. Interesting, I watched this guy work through a lot of this on the forums (zenith guy) --- it's a bit more than proof of concept -- agree it's not able to do what anyone on this site wants I don't think --- but no argument that it's an electric back country airplane with remarkable performance and meeting it's mission spec.

DENNY wrote:Yep 1 hour. The one hour does not include the 30 min reserve that the plane has (Google is your friend). So that would mean you would only need 1 more hour long flight if you manage your flights correctly. It would also be real flying not sitting on the taxiway for 10 min waiting for the oil temp to come up. before every flight. If you do a Google search you will fine long range electric glider hybrid aircraft. Nothing fits my flight profile now but for a lot of pilots that only fly less than one hour at a time with light loads the plane is already here. Give it 10 years and the battery tech will improve enough to extend the range others need.
DENNY

LOL - If it is cold enough to have to sit 10 min on a taxiway to warm up your oil, you just lost 30 min flight time on your electric running your cabin grid heater......