they are good cans, but they are not very handy.

There are materials that can be bonded to plastic that are conductors, and there are epoxies that are conductive.

Has anyone tried to bond a conductor to the outside of a plastic can? If the charge is on the outside and there is a ground strap i would think that it would disapate any static?

Dane

Good points all, but when was the last time anyone saw metal cans? I took a quick look around town this evening and found none. This is hitting close to home though as we are about to put on the skis and that means hauling our fuel. Time for a little more research I'm thinking.

Have a look at these cans:

I cut the following from this website:

http://www.scepter.com/gc/gc_page.exe?F ... yCans&Z9=0

Fuel Cans (MFC)
Scepter's military fuel cans are manufactured from extra tough, high molecular weight, high density polyethylene. They protect the fuel from contamination, and the environment from fuel leakage and fuel vapours. With a capacity of 20 litres, the MFC features three integral handles, and the flat rectangular shape of the old steel jerry cans that it replaced.

Military fuel cans are readily stacked or palletized for efficient storage and shipping. The cap retainer strap may be colour coded and marked with a raised letter to identify the type of fuel: Yellow for diesel, Red for gasoline, etc.

The easy-open twist cap, internal air vent, low-noise handling, and rapid pouring rate with Scepter's high-flow spouts, deliver superior performance.

In military live-fire tests, the MFC melts and burns, but it does not explode. The Scepter MFC fuel can exceeds the United Nations — Transport of Dangerous Goods Model Regulations and is Design Registered with Transport Canada, permitting its use universally for the transportation of fuels by all modes - air, sea, rail and road.

Scepter military fuel cans are produced in the colours and language markings that the customer requires. Some standard English language markings in olive drab, field drab or three different sand colours are available.

I have four of these cans and the flexible spout that comes with them. They are much more sturdy than the Red gas cans you get at your local auto supply store and have no vapor leaks which is why Transport Canada gives them the OK.

I can't speak to static, but a note to www.scepter.com should get that answered.

Tom- these are some awesome plastic gas cans...the best I have ever used. I have a half dozen of the the 6 gallon rectangular style. They fit into the edo floats on the Beaver and I have stowed them on the boat...very resistent to UV. These are the best plastic gas cans...but it still doesn't address the static issue. I have not ever had a problem and used these plastic cans for at least 20 years...the same Scepter jugs. I'm anxious to hear what Scepter says about the static issue.
Don

Try lakeandair.com, they have a seamless plastic gas transit cans that is approved by Canadian govt, 20 liters. (5.2 US gal.). Pricey.

qmdv wrote:I have a can similar to this that I use arround the ranch...http://www.omarksafety.com/category.cfm ... as_Can.cfm

Tim

The filler lids on these metal cans look like just the ticket.
Does anyone know if they can be obtained in the tall, rectangular "jerry can" shape, for efficient storage in the back of the plane? (There's not enough room for round objects in my C-172, when traveling.)
We're getting closer to finding a solution.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Berk

Dane,

The problem with plastic cans and static is that the static charge builds up over the ENTIRE outside of the can, not just at one point. Sure, you can bond one point to the filler neck, but the rest of the can is still energized, so to speak.

I agree with the several posts that suggest that fueling from plastic cans isn't that risky, since people do it all the time.

The problem is that every once in a while, someone burns themselves and burns their airplane up doing this.

If we could know exactly when that was going to happen, we'd have it whipped. Unfortunately, I don't know when it might happen, so I can only assume it may happen the next time I fuel out of a plastic can.

The Sceptre cans are very sturdy, but they do not address the static and bonding issue.

Again, the liklihood of you turning into a crispy critter whilst fueling your plane with a plastic can is small.

That said, I know two people who've done it........

MTV

I am attaching the reply from Scepter after this message. For those of you who want the PDF file which he attached please send me a PM w/ your email address and I will forward it to you ( it really does not tell you much more than what Ryan puts in his email ).

I think this topic reinforces the concept of using good decisions in all aspects of your flying.

A. Both Steel and Plastic cans gather static charge along w/ pump nozzles.

B. Grounding your aircraft is always a good idea, no matter if you are fueling from cans or a pump. ( maybe an alligator clip w/ some copper wire with a long copper or aluminium peg on the end) for those in the field refueling stops).

C. Using an aluminium ladder with an ungrounded aircraft is not the best thing to do when refueling.

I think that having lest robust fuel containers in the cabin or float is more of a danger than the manageable static danger.

My two bits worth.

Specter reply follows:

The Scepter plastic Military Fuel Container (MFC) can be used to refuel
an aircraft.

With the plastic cans, as with all aircraft refuelling operations, the
prescribed safety procedures must be followed strictly and carefully.

Under some climatic conditions a static charge will accumulate on any
jerry can, plastic or steel.

However, the charge on a 20 litre can is small and would not normally
create a hazard problem during refuelling. A concern may arise during
refuelling when the pour spout or funnel, the jerry can, and the person
pouring the fuel, combine to provide the conductive path for discharge
to the ground of the (enormous) static charge which may have or has
accumulated on the aircraft itself.

Plastic is an insulator while steel is a conductor which means it is
more difficult for a plastic can to shed or redirect the static charge.
To minimise static accumulation on a plastic jerry can, the user should
ensure the can is sitting on the ground when being filled and not leave
them in a vehicle bracket or sitting in the back of a vehicle when doing
so. Furthermore, with the can sitting on the ground, wiping the exterior
with a cotton rag wetted with water will remove the majority of any
static charge that has accumulated.

Before refuelling an aircraft from a plastic container the person, as a
additional precaution, may also endeavor to discharge any static charge
that may have accumulated on the aircraft. This can be done by means of
placing a charge-conducting material between the aircraft and the
ground.

I hope this helps clarify things.

I have attached an Australian document that discusses this issue in more
general terms.

Tom,

He makes some valid points. That said, my friend who got burned last year had a smaller can than 5 gallons when it lit off.

It is important to understand that you do not necessarily need to GROUND the aircraft. The rubber tires of the aircraft isolate it from the ground.

What you DO need to do is BOND the aircraft to the fueling mechanism.

When you go to a gas station to fill your car with fuel, you don't GROUND the car, you BOND it to the fueling dispenser, with the metal wire that is embedded in the fuel hose. The bond is made through the metal nozzle and the bonding cable in the hose.

Since plastic is an insulator, it won't carry a static charge to a bonding connection, while a steel or aluminum can will. The static charge builds up over the surface of the can (which is why he suggests using a damp cotton rag to wipe the surface of the can) and then tries to find a path to an object of different potential, specifically your airplane. With a metal can, that charge can dissipate through the can spout to equalize the charge.

I don't totally disagree with most of this fellow's points. It is important to note, however, that he's selling plastic cans.

One flaw in his logic is that as the fuel swirls around inside that plastic can, it builds a static charge. If conditions are right (and very cold dry air are near perfect) you can still have a problem. Ever try to carry around a wet cotton rag in the winter, by the way?

A friend of mine actually constructed a set of cans for his floatplane, mostly cause none of the commercially available cans would fit in the float lockers. He made them out of aluminum that he welded up, and padded the very bottoms of the cans with spray on bed liner, to cushion them. He made these in a weekend with a Mig welder. Bought some metal spouts at a hardware store.

These things were pretty elegant, and easy to use. Unfortunately, nobody wants to make cans for aircraft use specifically, due to liability.

MTV

Maybe the "delivery" method is the key to the solution. If these accidents happen when delivering fuel from a container of one potential to the aircraft of a different potential causing the static discharge. If you had a lightweight pump and hose mechanism...possibly a metal nozzle that is bonded to the aircraft. You could leave your cans or jugs on the ground and pump into your airplane. You have to find a high volume rotary hand operated positive displacement pump, plastic and light weight. Alternatively, maybe there is something electric or foot operated diaphragm design. I dunno.
Don

there are many pumps of this sort available at farm stores, both manual and electric. They do not cost much. Look at the responses at the first of the thread ans you will see that some have talked about this already.

Hmmm...fleece, funnels....??

I guess that I am lucky, Buhl, a town that is a 10 min flight has pump mogas, and they run monthly accounts with keys so I can always get gas.

I was wrong on this thread, i guess it was a different one where we were talking about fuel trailers. My bad, sorry.

This has been very informative, if not a bit frustrating, as it appears that we know the problem, and we do not have a good answer. I wonder if there is enough of a need to make research into this area effective.

I also thought that instead of a wet rag in the winter would anti static wipes work as well?

Well just rambling this am

Dane

Though not directly related to static, a few years ago I needed to drain the fuel out of the wing tanks on a Cessna 150. We set a 5 gallon plastic jug on the ground with a big funnel propped up to catch the fuel as it drained from the removed drain plug opening. A little of the fuel periodically splattered on the outside of the jug as the tank drained. We weren't paying much attention at the time but I noticed that when all of the fuel was out of the wing tank that there was a ring of frost around the opening in the jug where fuel had splattered. And this was in June with a temperature of probably 70 degrees! It opened our eyes to carb ice potential. I wonder now if we weren't close to having a static problem too? Maybe having the jug directly on the ground prevented a problem.

Mr. Helix,

I can introduce you to a fellow who burned down his plane doing precisely what you describe, except he was draining it from the gascolator. He was burned pretty badly, and the plane was totalled.

In your case, the moisture in the air had to be pretty high, to create the frost you describe. That being the case, you would have had less of a static hazard, but you were still probably very close.

Dropping fuel from some height, through a funnel, is a great way to create static. Having the receptacle on the ground probably won't help, because the plane itself is isolated from the ground by the tires. So, you wind up with potential between the plane and its fuel, and the container, and ground. That's pretty much a recipe for lightning.

MTV

I need to drain the tanks on my 170B to fix a leaking selector valve. Of course the tanks are full.

I am thinking of draining the fuel through the gasgolator so that I can use the fuel selector as a shut off valve.

I will drain the avgas into a metal jerry can. Might use a plastic funnel but a metal one shouldn't be too hard to find.

Then I will dump the avgas from the metal can into my bulk fuel tank which is on a trailer. The trailer is on rubber tires but the jack is on the floor, not hooked up to a vehicle.

Anyone have suggestions?

Bill

Flat Country Pilot wrote:I need to drain the tanks on my 170B to fix a leaking selector valve. Of course the tanks are full....

Anyone have suggestions?

I'd say ground bond the plane to the metal can (on the ground) with whatever you can find... (jumper cables, maybe make a custom cable/clip thing like you find on pay pumps) then drain away until the can is full. Seal it up, disconnect, and go dump it in your tank, once again grounding bonding to the tank. Repeat.

The main thing we're avoiding here is any kind of electrical potential between the fuel vessels (can, plane tanks, trailer tank.) I always like to touch my hand to the aircraft or car or whatever before bringing the filler close if I'm not using a ground bonding wire.

Around here in Reno it's dry, and damned if everytime I get out of the car or truck, I get a discharge to the outside of the door. ZAP.

Yes,

Bond the plane to the receptacle. Also, if you can, attach a hose to the gascolator drain, so that you can prevent the fuel from "dropping" any distance as it comes out of the gascolator to the can. put the hose into the can.

I'd also try to ground the aircraft as well.

This is precisely the scenario my friend was in when he got burned.

MTV

Thanks for the advice. I don't like things like this and if I were at an airport instead of our farm, I would wheel this over to a mechanic and pay him to help.

I haven't been out to look yet, but I may be able to reverse the leads on my fuel pump and suck the fuel out of the plane tanks and into the bulk tank. This would allow me to use the static wire from the trailer and I would probably spill less fuel.

Still have the issue of avgas running through the belly of the plane. Once the tanks are empty I will let it sit for a couple days so everything is dry and aired out.

Thanks again.

Bill

Why don't you syphon the gas out of the tanks first, then you will have less to deal with when you finally drain the tanks. Put a metal can on an alluminum step ladder so the fuel does not have to fall as far when syphoning. The ladder will ground the fuel can, I think. If this will not work then a host of experts will let us know.

When I take my plane in for the annual or other work relating to fuel, I fly the plane in with minimal fuel in the tanks. You cannot always plan ahead but I try.

And the BBP sucker hose is just the ticket. Don't leave home without it.


https://id298.securedata.net/bajabushpi ... =pricelist

Tim