Yeah, gotta love them winter windstorms. Didn't get too much in the way of winds here at my house, but my power went off at 8am yesterday (well after the windstorm was over) and came back on late this afternoon while I was out aviating. When it crapped out it flickered off and on several times, leading me to believe it was turned off to faciltate fixing some other part of the power grid. Very annoying, but I have a wood stove and a camp lantern so not life threatening. Just heard on the TV news that close to 300,000 customers are still powerless. Not much fun. A lotta people nowadays have pellet stoves, sounds real good until you find out that they need power to operate (pellet-feed and power-draft mechanisms).
Everything was fine at my airport, but I heard a Luscombe got flipped upside down at Thun Field, and a Helio on floats got upset at Renton. What got loose at Boeing?

Eric

zero.one.victor wrote:Yeah, gotta love them winter windstorms...a Helio on floats got upset at Renton...Eric

Yikes. I guess wind can become a big problem, when your float plane will start flying @ around 25 mph! (Helio) Ahhh, but that is the kind of problem to have. What an amazing ship.
Berk

I seance a possible thread hyjack. Gas cans to winds. Well maybe this thread was kept alive by windy posts.

Tim

PS do not get afended, just enjoying myself while stuck on the ground.

qmdv wrote:I seance a possible thread hyjack. Gas cans to winds. Well maybe this thread was kept alive by windy posts.

Tim

PS do not get afended, just enjoying myself while stuck on the ground.

Squawk code 7500 rescinded. Brrrrr. sure is breezy in here.
Sorry. Now, how 'bout those pesky gas cans??
Berk

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't gas pump hoses get bonded through a million or so ohm resistance? Having a metal gas can won't do you much good if it still should have a static charge as it contacts the open port of your gas tank. I think the value of metal cans is, that they provide the maximum opertunity of getting in contact with ground and discharging ahead of time(inside charge as well as outside)...Bonding is only good if you do it ahead of time in an area that doesn't have fumes and oxygen....if, in the case of sticking the fill nozzle of a pump into your car's tank..(haven't seen a grounding cable in a gas station yet) ...it discharges a high temperature(high current, low resistance) spark between the fill nozzle and the tank opening...boom!...
A high value resistance in series allows discharge, but with a very low temperature spark, even if it should jump a gap...
This brings up the idea of a conductive plastic, also....to be safe it should probably be just barely conductive, so as to limit the temperature of any spark...Ja?

fob,

Most gas hoses have a bonding cable built into the hose, which it connected to both metal ends.

You are correct, though, that bonding in advance is important to reduce the potential BEFORE the nozzle comes into proximity of the fuel filler. Best to do that with a bonding cable, but just touching the nozzle to a metal bonding point on the plane prior to putting the nozzle into the fuel filler will do most of this job as well. In a proper fueling system, there are redundancies, in other words. There's no way a gas station owner would trust a motorist to attach a bonding cable to a car prior to fueling .

MTV

Well, sure, but doesn't the cable (braid) in the hose go through a resistance to lower the energy of a spark....if it was straight from pump to nozzle, it would be igniting tanks left and right.......wouldn't it?

I talked with a friend who assured me that the hose braid didn't go through a resistor, but he never actually measured it. So, I just got back from the gas station with my multi-meter. Three point three million ohms from the metal pump to the filler spout. Just enough to bleed off charge in a few seconds but enough to keep the spark temperature well below ignition....I'll check the fuel dump at the airport this weekend...

fob,

But, the point is, it's bonded.

MTV

Sure, but I'm trying to work up some safety statagies here, so I don't immolate myself in my hanger one fine day, and I need to know a few things, first. Like whether I dare touch the fuel spout to the metal of the tank, or touch it to something somewhat removed , but still a conductive part of the airframe first. Eventually, I want a safety procedure for safely using plastic gas cans...and maybe metal gas cans have a heck of a lot more risk than commonly thought, because of their ability to conduct current enough for a high energy spark...I'm going to find out by learning important facts, like whether fuel hoses go through a resistance...does the gas inside a plastic can hold a charge relative to the outside...?? The first step in doing this stuff is take nothing for granted....

Fob,

You should Always touch a fuel nozzle to the airframe prior to pouring fuel.

That should be normal procedure.

Keep on digging, though.

MTV

If you are going to get serious about static control, you need a static meter. It will measure the charge on various surfaces, so you can get a quantitative idea of how your static control measures perform. I used to use these in electronic assembly workstations where the threshould of damage was far less that what it would take to get a spark. If you do some research along these lines, be sure to post your results.
tom

Fobjob,
Believe the word you're looking for is static dissipative. The hose will be allow electrical movement but have a high resistance and therefore a very low current. Prevents arcing. As Savannah Tom mentioned a dissipative matting or surface is used in the electronics industry to prevent static build-up and subsequent arcing.

Some sites you may find interesting in your investigation: http://www.hbdthermoid.com take a look at their petroleum hose products for their aviation hoses. The Petroleum Equipment Institute has a website with ESD info on it http://www.pei.org/static/index.htm. Some work that was done previously by the Cafe organization on ESD, refueling and aviation can be found here: http://cafefoundation.org/pdf/Fuel%20Handling%20Safety.pdf. EAA had some info on how to alter a plastic fuel container that I'm going to look into doing and that can be found here: [url]members.eaa.org/home/ehotline/030425.html[/url]. If you want to delve into this a long way here is one place you can find info on the equipment necessary: http://www.electrotechsystems.com/electrostatic.asp

One the topic of metal fuel cans, the ones I use now are the so called "NATO" style military cans. They hold 20liters/5gal and are very sturdy. Unlike the "jerry" cans with screw lids that leak like a sieve, they have a lever-latch system and thick captured gasket that is really leakproof. I've got ten of them, and am very happy with them. I've gotten them from local surplus stores and sportsmansguide.com. The most I paid was $15 for new ones. Some have been brand new surplus, some used. I've had to cut new gaskets for some of the used ones, but once done, they have never leaked. Since they are metal, you can easily ground them to the plane before pouring.
tom

I read the EAA article referenced, and it recommended putting metal inside the plastic can, then connecting that to a bonding strap. Won't work. That's not the only place static builds on a plastic can, amongst other things. That article was seriously misleading, and should not have been published.

MTV

So I have read all the hot skinny on this thread and I take it that if I use this fuel can at the link below. You notice that they say that the use of a plastic can is the only safe way to transport fuel by air.

http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com/scepter/index.html

And the supersiphon at this link below. I stand a chance at having a Viking's Death. Remember the Movie "Vikings" with Kirk Douglas


http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com/supe ... index.html

qmdv,

It is called "advertising". "The only safe way to transport fuel by air".

Uh, excuse me, but transporting fuel is still considered hazmat, with all that implies. These cans don't do ANYTHING that a metal can doesn't, except they wont' rust.

Did you notice that they didn't say anything about static??

Again, I can advertise anything I want, any way I care to. Of course these guys have the biggest, baddest, safest fuel can in the industry.

Why?? Cause their internet site says so....


MTV

You are totaly correct. "CAVEAT EMPTOR" That is Latin for let the buyer beware. I am a firm believer of this.

Hey MTV, I am still a bit confused by all this. Remember I was a Quartermaster. That is where the QM comes from in my user name. The DV is from the fact that I was also a ships diver.

Will you still have a problem with a syphon hose out of a plastic can or a steel can.

Sonar Techs were always so technical

Tim

You are totaly correct. "CAVEAT EMPTOR" That is Latin for let the buyer beware. I am a firm believer of this.

Hey MTV, I am still a bit confused by all this. Remember I was a Quartermaster. That is where the QM comes from in my user name. The DV is from the fact that I was also a ships diver.

Will you still have a problem with a syphon hose out of a plastic can or a steel can.

Sonar Techs were always so technical

Tim

The Sceptre cans on Pangea are the same we discussed MANY posts ago.

To summarize:

It is dangerous to fuel your airplane.

All due caution should be exercised to prevent static sparks.

Heavier than air gasoline fumes are extremely dangerous in confined spaces and with sufficient air are explosive with a very low flash point. Read that " they go BOOM really easily". Closed hangers and float compartments are not a good place for these fumes.

If you are flying somewhere that is beyond your round trip fuel capacity you are going to have to carry fuel.

Plastic and metal cans have static potential; therefore, removing the static from the cans by whatever means is wise. We have all gotten away with it in the past but that does not mean we will continue to.

Place can on ground, wipe outside w/ wet cloth ( for you Great White Northerners I guess you will have to carry the cloth in your armpit or something) use a conductive ground (bond) between the can and grounded airplane.

Thin plastic cans from the Auto supply store are more risky than Sceptre. Approved does not mean totally safe no matter if it is plastic or metal.

Summation of the summation:

Know the dangers and use your head. Good decision making is a prime component of safe flying.

Cheers,

Tom