I'm planning a moose hunt in late August in northwest BC, somewhere between Watson Lake and Dease Lake, and a canoe will be invaluable.

I've seen photos of planes with canoes lashed to the rigging but I haven't been able to find much in the way of dos or don'ts. The link that MTV posted a couple years ago to the Alaska guidelines doesn't work anymore.

I'm flying a 182 on 2790s.

- Is the plane's handling significantly impacted? Fuel burn?
- Other than impeding ingress and egress, does it matter to which side it is attached? I assume a big drag on one side will influence rudder trim.
- Would you try and buy a canoe close to the destination to minimize haul distance or does it really matter? Watson Lake is 700nm from my home airport.

Looking for some words of advice from the people that have been there and done that.

Can't offer anything in regards to carrying a canoe externally, but if you decide it's not what you want to do, here are a couple options for expedition-grade boats you can easily cary inside the airplane and still have room and load for all your other gear.

These are simply amazing...I was a fanatical hard-shell whitewater kayaker for twenty years, and now I use a Alpaca Raft for 90% of my boating:

https://www.alpackaraft.com/rafting/

No other manufacture of "packrafts" is even close to the quality and innovation of Alpaca Raft, so if you think a packraft is the way to go, be wary of other makes.

Feathercraft have a passionate following from the sea kayaking expedition crowd. Much more efficient than a packraft on long stretches of flat water, but bulkier, more complex to assemble, and more expensive.

http://feathercraft.com/kayaks/kurrent/

The Alpacarafts are great, but hauling a moose in one......probably not so great.

For a boat you could carry internally, I'd consider one of these: http://pakboats.com/pakcanoes/ My crews on the Yukon Flats used these things day in and day out, dragging them on nasty portages, folding, re-assembling, etc. I'd consider one of the 15 or 16 foot boats, depending on how many people you'll have.

BUT, if you feel the need for a hard boat, I wouldn't worry too much about it. A 16 or 17 foot canoe should work fine.

Caveat: I know NOTHING about Canadian or BC regulations regarding carriage of external loads on fixed wing aircraft.

The Alaska guidance suggests carrying one boat on the right side vertical struts. I never did so, unless I was carrying two canoes. I prefer to have the boat on the pilot's side of the airplane where I can SEE it during a flight. On the passenger side, can't see it.

I attach a canoe with good quality ratcheting straps. Get good ones, like these: https://www.cargoequipmentcorp.com/1-In ... Wire-Hooks or similar. The hooks on these hold well.

Figure out where you want the canoe on the struts, to keep it as far forward as practical, but behind the propeller. Strap that sucker down tight, and tie off the bitter ends of the straps to keep them from flapping. If the straps change the shape of the canoe, they're just about tight enough.... .

In flight, you probably won't even know it's there after a few minutes. Yes, they induce a LITTLE bit of yaw, but it's surprisingly minimal. With external loads, I always try to avoid any big climb angles, and keep airspeed under control during descents, but really one canoe isn't a bad load at all. Don't forget to count the weight of the canoe in your load calculations.

As to a 700 mile flight, it can certainly be done, but that's a long haul both coming and going. The boat will slow you down some, but not massively, maybe 8 to 10 knots on a 185. No experience with 182s on floats, so can't say, but it'll be in that range, I'd bet.

Before I took on that long a flight, I'd borrow a canoe and try a local flight first, and see what YOU think. Then make your decision on whether you want that thing out there for 700 miles.

I've carried a lot of external loads, and GENERALLY, canoes fly just fine, with just one boat aboard. Two canoes, not so good.

BUT, if there's a reasonable way to use one of the folding boats....I'd go there. Depends on whether you're planning to buy a canoe or you already have one. The PakBoats are tough, and they paddle fine. And, they'll haul a load.

If you want to talk more about this, send me a PM and I'll get you a phone number.

MTV

Thanks for posting that Hammer. I debated asking about pack rafts in the thread because I can remember a couple references to them in other threads but assumed they wouldn't be up to the task of hauling a couple guys and a moose quarter.

Do you think a couple guys could have a significant load in one?

Do they paddle like a canoe or a raft?

albravo wrote:Thanks for posting that Hammer. I debated asking about pack rafts in the thread because I can remember a couple references to them in other threads but assumed they wouldn't be up to the task of hauling a couple guys and a moose quarter.

Do you think a couple guys could have a significant load in one?

Do they paddle like a canoe or a raft?

Packrafts are astounding load haulers, and they make some specifically for what you're trying to do:
https://www.alpackaraft.com/rafting/product/forager/

The Forager is rated for two people and 500 lbs of gear in moving water. That's a pretty conservative load, especially on flat water. I've never heard of one being overloaded to the point of sinking, and while there's no doubt that they can be punctured, I've never suffered a puncture, despite using them extensively on low-water class IV descents, and hitting a lot of rocks in the process.

There's a packraft in there somewhere.


Paddling wise...you paddle them like a kayak with a double bladed paddle, but since they have no keel, they don't track straight of their own accord. It wouldn't be my first choice for an extended sea kayaking trip, but they do just fine for crossing lakes.

Some companies do rent them out. They send you the raft in the mail, and you mail it back when you're done. Personally I think that two smaller packrafts would be more convenient that one big one, and I'm not at all positive that they're the best option for you, but they are amazing crafts. Those pakboats look pretty good, but they're a LOT bigger and heavier, so you have to figure that out.

The company (Alpaca Raft) is also SUPER-helpful and easy to deal with, and they really stand behind their products. Each raft is hand made, in part by who ever answers the phone when you call. Just a great company to deal with.

I really don't think you want a hard-sided canoe for floating a moose, personally. We've done some long (10-15) day river trips in Alaska in SOAR boats:

http://soar1.com/

that are awesome. Very stable for carrying a big load. They don't paddle as fast as a canoe or track as well (you get used to it) but stability is roughly one-thousand times better, and stability and load-carrying capability would be top-of-mind for me unless you're maybe needing to paddle across lakes (?). Plus, no external load. Collapsible paddles and the boat itself rolls down to something that would go behind the back seat of a 182 (with some sweat).

Good luck.

Or an aire traveler.

May not be great for a full on moose hunt but they pack up small and light,

www.orukayak.com

Actually, hard sided canoes carry dead moose just fine. Been there, done that.

But that may or may not be the particular task that he intends the boat for.

And, in fact, he may already own a perfectly good canoe.

But, it would help if he were to discuss more fully what he needs a boat for.

MTV

Looks like there's lots of good options for packable boats out there that would really make a person think twice about strapping a canoe to the floats...especially if they didn't already own a canoe.

I'd vote for a boat given the distance to and from the hunt with an external load. That's unless he wants to leave a canoe there for next year's trip if a good spot is discovered. Bears like plastic things so maybe that's not an option unless it could be hung in a tree.

Hint: take a rope come-a-long and lots of suitable rope to pull the canoe up a tree or the shot moose out of the swamps. They like to head for water to escape from danger given the opportunity.

Actually a canoe and an outrigger made from a couple of small trees and an attached float of sorts makes a stable carrying platform.

Gary

mtv wrote:The Alpacarafts are great, but hauling a moose in one......probably not so great.

For a boat you could carry internally, I'd consider one of these: http://pakboats.com/pakcanoes/ My crews on the Yukon Flats used these things day in and day out, dragging them on nasty portages, folding, re-assembling, etc. I'd consider one of the 15 or 16 foot boats, depending on how many people you'll have.

BUT, if you feel the need for a hard boat, I wouldn't worry too much about it. A 16 or 17 foot canoe should work fine.

Caveat: I know NOTHING about Canadian or BC regulations regarding carriage of external loads on fixed wing aircraft.

The Alaska guidance suggests carrying one boat on the right side vertical struts. I never did so, unless I was carrying two canoes. I prefer to have the boat on the pilot's side of the airplane where I can SEE it during a flight. On the passenger side, can't see it.

I attach a canoe with good quality ratcheting straps. Get good ones, like these: https://www.cargoequipmentcorp.com/1-In ... Wire-Hooks or similar. The hooks on these hold well.

Figure out where you want the canoe on the struts, to keep it as far forward as practical, but behind the propeller. Strap that sucker down tight, and tie off the bitter ends of the straps to keep them from flapping. If the straps change the shape of the canoe, they're just about tight enough.... .

In flight, you probably won't even know it's there after a few minutes. Yes, they induce a LITTLE bit of yaw, but it's surprisingly minimal. With external loads, I always try to avoid any big climb angles, and keep airspeed under control during descents, but really one canoe isn't a bad load at all. Don't forget to count the weight of the canoe in your load calculations.

As to a 700 mile flight, it can certainly be done, but that's a long haul both coming and going. The boat will slow you down some, but not massively, maybe 8 to 10 knots on a 185. No experience with 182s on floats, so can't say, but it'll be in that range, I'd bet.

Before I took on that long a flight, I'd borrow a canoe and try a local flight first, and see what YOU think. Then make your decision on whether you want that thing out there for 700 miles.

I've carried a lot of external loads, and GENERALLY, canoes fly just fine, with just one boat aboard. Two canoes, not so good.

BUT, if there's a reasonable way to use one of the folding boats....I'd go there. Depends on whether you're planning to buy a canoe or you already have one. The PakBoats are tough, and they paddle fine. And, they'll haul a load.

If you want to talk more about this, send me a PM and I'll get you a phone number.

MTV

Exactly the advice I was looking for, thanks.

I'll be using the canoe for hunting and hauling. I haven't picked the lake yet but I do know a lot of terrain in the northwest is better suited to hunting from a canoe than on foot. Those pakboats look perfect. Not surprisingly, there are very few of them for sale used.

PA1195 wrote:I'd vote for a boat given the distance to and from the hunt with an external load. That's unless he wants to leave a canoe there for next year's trip if a good spot is discovered. Bears like plastic things so maybe that's not an option unless it could be hung in a tree.

Hint: take a rope come-a-long and lots of suitable rope to pull the canoe up a tree or the shot moose out of the swamps. They like to head for water to escape from danger given the opportunity.

Actually a canoe and an outrigger made from a couple of small trees and an attached float of sorts makes a stable carrying platform.

Gary

I've been pondering those exact issues. I've got about 800 lbs of useful load, so the hunt will involve a few staging trips and light gear will be really valuable. I'm looking at the area south of Teslin Lake. Watson Lake and Dease Lake are roughly equidistant though neither offer much that I need other than fuel. It would be pretty lucky to find a used canoe in either place, otherwise I'll probably end up spending the dough and buying one like MTV recommended.

I wouldn't be against leaving a canoe there for next year, but your point about bears is exactly why I might not.

The plane is nose heavy on amphibs so I have a pretty sweet survival/camping kit in the baggage area that includes a good rope comealong. One of my favourite things about hunting is the puzzle of how to get a critter hauled and processed with the tools available. Having said that, I've never shot a moose in a swamp, so that might change. Anybody ever pull a moose from a swamp with a float plane?

I'd imagine boat weight has some importance to you. A few years ago when I was shopping for canoes, I sucked it up and bought a kevlar Wenonah Aurora 16'. It's seriously featherweight as far as canoes go. I can carry it by myself on my back easily.

I was wondering what your weight situation was...especially with the addition of a moose when you leave.

Those PakCanoe's look super-slick, and they'd be my choice to hunt out of if I thought I was going to be in a boat most of the time.

But a PakCanoe comes in at 54 pounds, while a two-person Alpaca Raft is just 13.5 pounds. I'd pick the PakCanoe if I had the load capacity, but with only 800 pounds useful it seems like it might be overkill.

I'm sure you'll figure it out!

albravo wrote:

PA1195 wrote:I'd vote for a boat given the distance to and from the hunt with an external load. That's unless he wants to leave a canoe there for next year's trip if a good spot is discovered. Bears like plastic things so maybe that's not an option unless it could be hung in a tree.

Hint: take a rope come-a-long and lots of suitable rope to pull the canoe up a tree or the shot moose out of the swamps. They like to head for water to escape from danger given the opportunity.

Actually a canoe and an outrigger made from a couple of small trees and an attached float of sorts makes a stable carrying platform.

Gary

I've been pondering those exact issues. Anybody ever pull a moose from a swamp with a float plane?

Unfortunately, I’ve been close. Shot a young bull who was standing on a lake shore, facing the woods. I guessed he’d die trying to get to he trees. Uh, nope......I planted a .375 slug right in the boiler room, and he died before he hit the surface. But he did that by rising upon his hind legs, and pitching backwards into the lake.

I returned to camp, fired up the plane, and landed on the lake he was in. At first, I figured I’d winch him up on shore. Turns out the “shore” he was standing on when I shot him was actually a floating mat. Fortunately, the weather was very balmy. So, I took off my shoes and saddled up that moose. Cut the quarters off in the water, loaded them, then winched the carcass out of the water to recover the rest of the meat.

Not a conventional way to bucher a moose, but sometimes you have to adapt.

MTV

mtv wrote:Unfortunately, I’ve been close. Shot a young bull who was standing on a lake shore, facing the woods. I guessed he’d die trying to get to he trees. Uh, nope......I planted a .375 slug right in the boiler room, and he died before he hit the surface. But he did that by rising upon his hind legs, and pitching backwards into the lake.

I returned to camp, fired up the plane, and landed on the lake he was in. At first, I figured I’d winch him up on shore. Turns out the “shore” he was standing on when I shot him was actually a floating mat. Fortunately, the weather was very balmy. So, I took off my shoes and saddled up that moose. Cut the quarters off in the water, loaded them, then winched the carcass out of the water to recover the rest of the meat.

Not a conventional way to bucher a moose, but sometimes you have to adapt.

MTV

Must have been a lucky shot...that's a pretty small cartridge for moose.

Rifle was a Mannlicher, short barell, full stock. Bear gun, which turns out never shot a bear. Amazing gun, though, and much to my regret, I sold it to a friend.

When I hunt moose in brown bear country, I prefer to be prepared for unwanted visitors. And that rifle had a “nicer” recoil than a .338.

MTV

I took a moose 7/10ths of a mile from the Nushagak River on Millionaire Bluff.. taken when facing me with a 300 ultramag. His heart, lungs and bronchiole tubes were not identifiable. All mush. Ran about 100’ before it dropped. Never again...my preference would be to drop a moose on or near a lake or river bank so that I could toss the quarters in a game bag then into the river to cool quickly. We hauled it by boat to Portage Creek then into Dillingham using a 207. When I get my Bearhawk done and on a set of 2960’s.... shortened 18” to convert to 2780’s...a back pack canoe will be on my list....thanks for the links and experiences....


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mtv wrote:Rifle was a Mannlicher, short barell, full stock. Bear gun, which turns out never shot a bear. Amazing gun, though, and much to my regret, I sold it to a friend.

When I hunt moose in brown bear country, I prefer to be prepared for unwanted visitors. And that rifle had a “nicer” recoil than a .338.

MTV

Sounds like a nice rifle, but I wouldn't beat yourself up too much for selling it. MT bears aren't generally large enough to warrant such a weapon, IMO. I don't hunt anymore, but if I did I wouldn't see any need for anything larger than a .308 or 30-06 in lower-48 bear country. Neat as a .375 H&H is, what the hell are you going to do with it? Not that fun to target shoot with...not that fun to buy cartridges for.

Seems like a moose or fifty have already ridden in Alpaca Rafts...I seem to remember reading that was one of the driving forces for developing them many years ago.