Just flying around, a J3 would definitely be more fun for the kid, but like I said I think he'd be better served toward getting his ticket by flying the spam can. How many run-of-the-mill DPE's these days are familiar with Cubs, or can even get into the back of one?

My thinking is for Jackson to get a few hours locally at Morgan county apt then if he is really hooked to finish up in Ogden. He would not get a check ride in either of the tail wheel planes in the poll. (most likely) Morgan would be good training due to the uneven terrain around the airport and a narrow strip. Ogden is a huge airport with pretty flat terrain.

Tim

Just because he starts in a J-3 doesn't mean he has to finish in a J-3. I did the first half of my PPL in a J-3 then switches to the 150 for navigation and XC and took my checkride in it. I'm glad I learned this way. It taught me right off the bat what those rudder pedals were for and that the ASI and other instruments weren't so important for safe flight.... I couldn't see them most of the time from the back seat! I also learned that flying a tailwheel was no big deal, because it's what I started with. The 150 was easy to land in comparison. I'm glad I started in the J-3 and wouldn't want it any other way. Some will argue that it will take longer to get your license switching planes like that. Yeah, maybe so. I still finished in 48 hours and that included some solo time just for fun.

robw56 wrote:Just because he starts in a J-3 doesn't mean he has to finish in a J-3. I did the first half of my PPL in a J-3 then switches to the 150 for navigation and XC and took my checkride in it. I'm glad I learned this way. It taught me right off the bat what those rudder pedals were for and that the ASI and other instruments weren't so important for safe flight.... I couldn't see them most of the time from the back seat! I also learned that flying a tailwheel was no big deal, because it's what I started with. The 150 was easy to land in comparison. I'm glad I started in the J-3 and wouldn't want it any other way. Some will argue that it will take longer to get your license switching planes like that. Yeah, maybe so. I still finished in 48 hours and that included some solo time just for fun.

I totally agree. Work on the core stick skills in the J-3 for the first portion of training, then transition to the Cessna for more instrument oriented work and the check ride prep.

robw56 wrote:Just because he starts in a J-3 doesn't mean he has to finish in a J-3. I did the first half of my PPL in a J-3 then switches to the 150 for navigation and XC and took my checkride in it. I'm glad I learned this way. It taught me right off the bat what those rudder pedals were for and that the ASI and other instruments weren't so important for safe flight.... I couldn't see them most of the time from the back seat! I also learned that flying a tailwheel was no big deal, because it's what I started with. The 150 was easy to land in comparison. I'm glad I started in the J-3 and wouldn't want it any other way. Some will argue that it will take longer to get your license switching planes like that. Yeah, maybe so. I still finished in 48 hours and that included some solo time just for fun.

I did pretty well the same thing. First 11 hrs in a 172, my Cub the next 25 hrs or so, then back to the 172 for 6 hrs to prepare for the check ride, for 42 hrs total. I was the first student my CFI had that went this route, and he felt that I was far ahead of the typical student at 40 hrs. I owe all of that to flying a Cub, it's not like you need all those radios, instruments, and doors for most of the training anyway!

Robw56 has brought up a good point. Most of us and even Billy Howell, owner of Ag Flight, recognized the value of tail wheel training first. He had about fifteen tail wheel airplanes, one C-150 for PPL and one Comanche for complex. We are more likely to be indoctrinated in what we learn first. Learning to actually use the rudder pedals is excellent indoctrination.

With that kind of thinking in mind, I also convinced Billy to allow me to teach maneuvering flight techniques through solo before turning zero timers over to normal PPL instructors. Of course this would not be necessary for those not intending to engage in maneuvering flight. For many, it is the major part of the job description. For all it is useful.

I have learned from students who chose not to stay in the crop dusting business that these few early hours greatly increased their comfort with takeoff, landing, go around, precautionary, and forced landing situations.

Recognizing that I'm among the worst of tail wheel pilots, albeit legal due to having done it so many years ago, I voted for the 152 on the theory that learning the nuances of any tail dragger just adds to the difficulty of learning the basics. Once he has soloed, then I'm all for switching to a tail dragger for awhile, perhaps back and forth depending on that lesson's mission. I agree wholeheartedly that tail wheels teach something that is sometimes left out of nose wheel airplanes, how to use rudders. Once in the air, though, there's no benefit, and in today's flying world, like it or not, there is a whole lot more to learning to fly than just how to take off and land.

Cary

Cary wrote:Recognizing that I'm among the worst of tail wheel pilots, albeit legal due to having done it so many years ago, I voted for the 152 on the theory that learning the nuances of any tail dragger just adds to the difficulty of learning the basics. Once he has soloed, then I'm all for switching to a tail dragger for awhile, perhaps back and forth depending on that lesson's mission. I agree wholeheartedly that tail wheels teach something that is sometimes left out of nose wheel airplanes, how to use rudders. Once in the air, though, there's no benefit, and in today's flying world, like it or not, there is a whole lot more to learning to fly than just how to take off and land.

Cary

Agree with most of this. I have given a lot of though to his flying. I want him to get some tail wheel flying (I mean landing) as part of his overall training. Morgan County is real close to his residence and he has the tail wheel opportunity at that airport.. If he finishes his private it will probably be in Ogden in nose wheel country

Tim

I vote for training in a TW. I did all but the night flying in my Luscombe and it was a great experience. I'm not above average and learning in a TW didn't take me any longer than a trike would have; soloed in 8 hrs and took my check ride at 41hrs. I would recommend having a radio and xponder in the plane for radio work. I didn't and still fear talking on the radio.

The quality and attitude of the instructor is far more important than the type of airplane.

As long as the instructor doesn't allow sloppy flying (all too common I find), and teaches all the way to the edge of the envelope (spin recovery, "real" short/soft field, etc.), I think any plane will do. That said, all else being equal, it would be pretty cool to start out in the J3.

I transitioned to the J3 right after getting my private, and had no issues. They're pussycats and a ton of fun to fly! I think that getting to fly in several types early on is really valuable too.

Oregon180 wrote: That said, all else being equal, it would be pretty cool to start out in the J3.

I transitioned to the J3 right after getting my private, and had no issues. They're pussycats and a ton of fun to fly! I think that getting to fly in several types early on is really valuable too.

To me, this is the most important part. Flight training part 61 style is daunting for most folks. The J3 is a vessel to make that process a lot funner. Windows open and enjoying the experience will keep a student coming back when faced with that hard middle hours period that can halt someone's progress. I learned in a 180. Glad I did. I'm already looking into a fun airplane for my son to learn in. Primary consideration: something fun that will lay the motivational foundation.

Brett

He and family are here in Nor Cal. I will loan him a book. "Flight of Passage" by Rinker Buck. About two brothers flying cross country in a Cub. Good read. Just part of working the bait.

Tim

First off, I wasn't planning on replying to this thread, mostly because I choose not to post much in a place where so many knowledgable people voice my exact ideas in a better way than I could ever convey. However, yesterday evening, I had a moment that reminded me of what flying really is and I felt I might should share it.

Long story short, I have been spending most all of my recent flight time at big airports in pursuit of my Instrument and Commercial. All of this flying in a Turbo Arrow at a big airport was very much a challenge, and a massive learning experience, and it has most defiantly made me a better pilot. However, Last night, the night before my Commercial check ride I was feeling the typical nerves that go along with any check ride, In my angst, I decided to go receive some therapy in the Cub that I learned to fly in.

This flight was just one of those flights that reminds you what exactly flying really is. The feeling of truly being one with an airplane is simply unexplainable, door open, no radios, no headsets, nothing but you and the airplane. This is what flying really is in the purest sense, and this above all is what makes a good pilot, and this experience is easily found in the Cub.

As useful as radio work is, as fun as instrument flying is, and as nifty as a glass panel is, and as much as all of those things do that is not what really flying an airplane is.

Learning to really fly an airplane comes first, all the extra stuff can come later. Go for the Cub!


(Sorry for my lack of eloquence and brevity, but I just don't know any other way to put it)

You nailed it.

Gump

I am leaning towards a cub or champ. The one that is available with a good instructor is what will make the decision. RKTX is right on.

Tim

GumpAir wrote:You nailed it.

Gump

This.

RKTX,

Would love to hear how the check ride went if you're willing to post in another thread.

Brett

First and foremost Congrats to you and your grandson on heading down this journey And shame on you addicting him on such an expensive lifestyle to come

I vote cub, but that's probably no surprise.

Cary wrote:.... I agree wholeheartedly that tail wheels teach something that is sometimes left out of nose wheel airplanes, how to use rudders. Once in the air, though, there's no benefit, and in today's flying world, like it or not, there is a whole lot more to learning to fly than just how to take off and land.
Cary

I did want to add that I couldn't disagree with the above any more passionately. I am entirely convinced that correct manipulation of the controls (all of them) with split second timing has saved more than one pilot from splatting... not that I'd ever find myself in such poor shape while airborne Beyond that you often have time fix a whole lot of mistakes while airborne, but trying to fix a poorly executed take off or landing, leaves you nano seconds to get it right.

As a matter of fact I feel so strongly about that, that while I voted cub, I think gliders make an even better primary flight instruction platform. Mandatory rudder perfection and energy management...

Take care, Rob

I want to support what Rob just said. While most pilots never spray, fly pipeline, engage in backcountry or low recon work, or fly low powered airplanes in the high mountains, all pilots have to takeoff and land at least once every time they fly.

Condemnation of maneuvering flight leads to avoidance and avoidance leads to the mind set that there is no need to be able to maneuver quickly and precisely near the ground. That leads to the problem of trying to get up to "legal altitude" as quickly as possible, which is dangerous. And when in the normal flight training program are we taught to turn with the rudder and keep the wing level with aileron or clear the wing before we make a coordinated turn. When are we taught how not to put a wing into a wire or the ground?

The end result is that maneuvering flight, including takeoff and landing, is done poor or none maneuvering flight techniques. At least tail wheel airplanes force the pilot to learn to miss things on the airport with rudder.

I put my trust in the Cessna 152 but I am a bit one sided considering I have never flown a J3 or the Champ