I've experienced one of the situations the guy in the video that MtMatt posted describes. I was new to the plane, experimenting with it, seeing what it could do...and I did a real boo-boo at a low altitude. Now I don't have a single stitch of spin recovery instruction, so I thank the Lord for a quick intuitive response on my part and also for the plane's excellent slow-flight handling characteristics. I definitely learned from the experience, though I would have preferred to have my first near-spin with an instructor, and at a much higher altitude.

Excellent video MtMatt. Thanx for sharing.

Here's how not to do it:

That video/post is in poor taste.

Hows does one mock a guy that enters a inverted flat spin for a followup video of some basic acro?

mountainmatt wrote:That video/post is in poor taste.

Hows does one mock a guy that enters a inverted flat spin for a followup video of some basic acro?

A) I wasn't mocking anyone.
B) As far as taste, maybe it's different. Wayne showed how to pull out of a stall brought on by slipping into a turn with top rudder and warned what would happen if you tried to pull the stalled wing up with aileron instead of "stepping on the ball". The Airtractor in the vid I posted demonstrated what Wayne was talking about. In fact it validated that whole video.
C) If this doesn't resolve our "taste/tasteless" issue, there's always the ignore feature.

Sobering to watch someone die, but a valuable lesson to be sure.

I think that many certificated pilots don't truly understand the physics of increased load in a banked condition with various weights. If you're going to maneuver aggressively at low altitude, I suggest becoming very friendly with those concepts and the physics behind them. Some things you just can't expect to be notified of in the seat of your pants, and are unrecoverable at 50 ft AGL.

Zane wrote: Some things you just can't expect to be notified of in the seat of your pants, because they are unrecoverable at 50 ft AGL.

Probably some things one shouldn't do at 50 ft AGL.

To work and play in that environment, and I gotta say I love it there, and have spent probably the happiest hours of my flying life on the deck, balls to the wall NOE. It takes a combination of training, physical skill, experience, and CONCENTRATION to function safely in that world.

The laws of physics aren't human laws. There is no gray areas or discretion in how they're enforced. Know and obey the rules, you're fine. Don't, and you're on someone's YouTube video.

Gump

nmflyguy wrote:

norm wrote:

akavidflyer wrote:Having a hard time believing that a bunch of "back country pilots" have issues with flying low. If the terrain allows it, I hate getting over 20'. Most of the time the wing tips are less than 6' off the ground in a turn. If your at 500 and all hell breaks loose it just gives you an extra minute to think about how bad it will hurt when you auger in.

Over the last several decades commercial aviation has improved their accident records by leaps and bounds. Professional ops just get safer and safer.

Over the last several decades general aviation has not significantly improved its accident record and it remains mired in the **horrible**, or, at least in the **undesirable** column.

... and we GA pilots wonder why it isn't improving ...

Very good point Norm. Flying safely means you and me as pilots must intelligently manage the inherent risks of flight. If one chooses to fly with little or no margin of safety above the absolute minimum to stay airborne, then you're letting the risk manage you. If you fly with no margin of safety, eventually the wheel of (mis)fortune will land on your number, and it's game over.

As to akavid's remark, i.e., "If your at 500 and all hell breaks loose it just gives you an extra minute to think about how bad it will hurt when you auger in." I reply with the following:

That extra minute could be put to very good use by a skillful and mentally prepared pilot. That minute might help you fix the problem ("switch the damn fuel selector!") ... or it might be just enough to let you select a spot or a landing technique to put down where you and your passengers might just survive, or even walk away. Your passengers might just appreciate that.

On the other hand, if you're flyin' with wingtips 6 feet above ground it only takes a fraction of a second to be converted into a smoking pile of twisted metal and flesh, with no opportunity to make a decision that might just save your life.

And as to ak's other point about his surprise that backcountry flyers would have any hesitation to fly low: well, backcountry flying is no different than any other kind of flying when it comes to managing flight risk. Sure, it has some different risk factors, with techniques and considerations that are different than flying into a busy Class B international airport or flitting around the local uncontrolled pea patch grass strip. But the idea is the same ... evaluate the risks, and then manage the risks to do what you want (fly the backcountry) and do it safely.

1st bold.. All hell breaking loose is not a simple engine out, but a catastrophic failure (fold a wing etc.)

2nd bold.. I am guessing you missed the part where I said if the terrain allows.. If I am flying and dragin wing tip, you can bet that all I would need to do in the case of an engine out all I have to do is roll wings level and land the plane. I may bend it up a bit, but I would walk away (hopefully, if not, I bought the farm doing something I truly loved to do, what more can you ask for??)

As far as risk assessment and managing said risks, how the bad word do you know what I do to manage and mitigate the low level risks? Is the terrain suitable for low level flying? am I not nursing a hang over or some other form of distraction? Does the winds favor my flight? (little wind, or atleast a steady breeze and not gusting) There are many ways to asses and manage risks. By flying at 500 or 1000 I could be be adding some risks to the flight. I have hit micro bursts anywhere from 10,000 to 2000 feet but never ever hit one at 10'

At the end of the day I am pretty certain that this is BCP.org, not pavementpounders.org When a guy asks about how to safely fly at low level why not leave it up to the guys that do it day in and day out instead of citing some text book BS about there is only safety in altitude If you dont know do it, why toss in 20 bucks worth of BS instead of good advice?

Dear low flying proponents,

There is no single valid argument that can refute the logical fact that flying higher is safer, unless you're smoking a cigar and prone to hypoxia, or going fast enough to suffer a mach tuck.

It is not more fun, however. Flying NOE is the funnest thing in all of mankind's comprehension, and a necessity to get into some if the greatest places. But don't delude yourself into making an argument that low flying is as safe as high flying because you feel that someone on the Internet is reprimanding you.

But anyway, the OP asked for tips on low flying, not if it is safe or not. Personally, I love flying at 50 AGL for short stints, but it works my brain too hard to allow for any multi tasking. To relax more and be able to take some photos and think about anything besides not hitting something, I gotta get up a little higher. All depends in how hard you want to focus on the terrain I guess.

I also like to slow down. A little flap with appropriate power to allow for more time to make decisions and make tighter turns inside terrain. In my Cessna I even liked 20 deg flaps for circling and observing stuff on the ground. That doesn't mean approach-slow speed, it just means not cruise speed. Extra time for the brain to process the asteroids.

Zane wrote:Personally, I love flying at 50 AGL, but it works my brain too hard. To relax more and be able to take some photos and think about anything besides not hitting something, I gotta get up a little higher. All depends in how hard you want to focus on the terrain I guess.

Flying close to the ground, especially in poor visibility, is VERY hard work. Concentration is required to be minimum 100%, and decision making and "what if's" had better be flying way faster than your airplane. Closer to the ground/poorer the vis/the harder you work.

Late winter/early spring along the Arctic coast when the ice was still in and polar bears out, I had so many breathtaking days patrolling the ice and following white bear tracks out for miles to see if I could find them. While it was a huge rush to skim the pressure ridges in the ice at 5 feet AGL, the concentration required to do it for long periods wasn't worth it. What I found was about 200 ft AGL got me plenty close enough to see everything and track my critters, but not so close I didn't dare take my eyes off the next five second's distance out in front of me.

Just a helpful hint too: If you're real close to the deck, trim for a fairly firm "Nose Up" attitude. Make it strong enough you have to really apply some down pressure on the elevator for level flight. That way if you do get distracted, the airplane will drift up, and away from the rocks.

Gump

Yeah......I believe;
1. The important thing here is to realize that when you are lower to the ground you are putting yourself further in the corner for options IF something goes wrong mechanically.
Right now in the ITD rudder flutter there is a story about a guy that had his yoke come out in his hand and managed to deadstick it into Indian Creek with power, rudder, flap, and a partially jammed right yoke to provide some limited elevator control. Who the hell can see that kinda thing comin'? If you're down on the deck swooping along when something like that happens you may end up as teeth and bones in the bottom of a smoking crater. IF you are a bit higher you may have more options and more time to exercise those options to stay alive.

2. The lower you are to the ground/water for longer periods of time the more apt you are to have a potential collision with an unseen obstacle or high speed military traffic.
This potentially compounds itself tens of times with each 100' you go below 500' AGL.
One of my most recent crusades has been to get the little 196' meteorological test towers marked because they are so invisible and haphazardly placed in totally unknown locations, especially in the West and Mid-West.

If you are comfortable putting yourself, your passengers, and your investment at an increased risk just because it is more enjoyable, not because you actually HAVE to be there to work then have at it. Just don't bullshit yourself about the true realities of the increased risk.


A few little stories from a 17,000 hour pilot with 13,000 ag that did a lot of stupid shit in his teen years.

One day "some people I know" were swooping across the water at 10' to 100' in a Cherokee 140 on the Georgia coast in amongst the marsh lands at up to a mile or so from ANY sort of land and most of that was probably some really crappy swamp that you wouldn't want to try to walk in. They made it to their destionation......that day. BUT 3 hours of flight time later that little engine sucked an intake valve just leveling for cruise at about 1,500' south of Daytona. Although not a total failure the remaining power was not enough to maintain altitude so we landed at Spruce Creek. No problem BUT 3 hours before that it certainly would have and no, there were no flotation devices present over the water nor any boats that "they" saw.
You decide.

One day when I was about six I got to go fish a Cessna 172 that belonged to a friend of my dad's out of a river with him. This buddy and two other non-pilots figured it would be fun to get down in the river and really get 'er down there to HAVE FUN! Well after about four miles of this they came around a bend in the river, a river they all knew, and in this bend that is about a mile off the end of the runway of the airport they had departed from there was a little double wire set. Well this wire was enough to bring the little 172 down with a great crash. So as they were in about two feet of water in twisted metal all searching around the cabin floor for the one guy's eyeball that had come out I believe they realized that that was a bad idea after all and not much fun.
You decide.

One day long before I got my helicopter ticket, while riding as a passenger in a Bell 47 I had a nice guy taking me for a ride. He was gonna get 'er down to 100' or so off of a glassy lake to have some fun! Well he didn't understand what the dangers of glassy water were and I, at 21, had just gotten another one of those "quit telling people how to fly their shit" speeches from my elders. So like a good little soldier I just sat there and watched the shoreline come up level with us until the plexiglass shards were cutting my face as the wall of water came in and punched my chest so hard I blew out most of the breath I had taken as I realized what was happening (that, yes, this dipshit was indeed going to try to kill me!) just before impact. Yes, again, no friggin flotation devices, no boats, and not a single friggin' thing more than the little wood chunks from the shattered rotor blades were floating. Only crashed about 2,000 from shore but the swim was as much a survival incident as remembering which way was up as the helicopter was rolling as it sank and I needed to get my belt off and get out. And yes it was in Florida and there were Alligators in the lake, just what you want when you are swimming ten feet from a guy with a gaping head wound gushing blood all over his face!
You decide.

In my little 13,000 hours of working ag in like 16 or 17 states I can say with no bullshit that I have come VERY VERY close to being run over by a Harrier, 3 different incidents with A-10's, a military Beechjet, a group of five C-130's (I did end up upsidedown in the vortices on that one at about 150'), and TWO F'IN F-15's in formation - one went on one side of me and the other on the other, and they weren't loose. I didn't see them until I was getting to the end of a pass with a wire on the end that I couldn't get under. You know what it felt like to HAVE to pull up into a pair of F-15's going about 400 knots about 50 yards apart?
And probably a couple of incidents I've forgotten about too, I try to forget that stuff sometimes so's I don't get too scared to go back to work!
You decide.

I've also got two wire strikes to my credit in my time flying ag. Both had good results in that I brought the airplane back in mostly one piece both times. I believe in part due to the fact that the aircraft I was flying are purpose built to take wire strikes. Most aircraft are not.
I have also been most certainly, definitely, nearly killed by one of those little invisible met towers one morning because I didn't see it until a small piece reflected back into my work lights. If I had been fifteen minutes later with a little more twilight and not had my lights out I wouldn't be here now.
You decide.

Bottom line; it is fun swoopin' around and it can really add to the experience of flight but it is my opinion, in part due to the above mentioned issues, that if you don't NEED to be down there just don't do it. Certainly if you are going to take some unknowing passengers into that environment realize the added risk YOU are putting them under when they have no training or perception to make sound decisions for themselves.

I can tell ya if you end up in a twisted heap of metal or swimming for your life with them because, at least in part, you were "having fun" they aren't going to be really happy with you.
I wasn't exactly praising the helicopter pilot as we swam to shore for 45 minutes wondering if I was going to drown before we got there.

But get after it.

I believe we can only minimize the risks associated with low flying, but not completely eliminate the risks. And some planes (and pilots) are simply better suited for low level flying too. Doing a river run at 20' to 50' at high speed with no flaps, like Savannah Tom, if my engine fizzled, I would still be able to make it to the bank, pop over the tree line and land safely at 28mph in a soft, warm, wet rice paddy. Not all planes can do this. Not all pilots would consider heading for a treeline, whether one's plane is agile or not.

In his video, Motoadve's flying appears to be in a conventional plane that probably requires a fairly long landing roll out, and the flight is along what appears to be a hostile shoreline. Not a lot of options there. Maybe if he flew a different plane and at a location where he had more options, then more low level flight risks would be minimized. Also, there is always the option of just waiting until terrain arrives that is more suitable for a low level ditch, then dropping down to whatever one considers to be low level and enjoy it with minimized, but not eliminated risk.

mountainmatt wrote:That video/post is in poor taste.

Hows does one mock a guy that enters a inverted flat spin for a followup video of some basic acro?

Was this some kind of mechanical failure? If not then.

What this shows me is if you don't know exactly how a airplane will respond to your inputs you are dancing with the devil.

I didn't teach myself to fly. So why would I attempt to teach myself advanced maneuvers. If I want to learn those types of maneuvers you can bet I'll be fully schooled.

My 2 cents on flying low. You better REALLY REALLY concentrate and I don't mean taking a picture. I have a close friend who wheel landed at 125 MPH when he was supposed to be flying. Lucky indeed!


Good day

Another tasteless flying vid Looks like fun.

Just in case anyone needs to cool off, here is a very nice pool in which to do so. Just beyond the pool area is the flight park's main building, with an upstairs cafe, viewing area (so we can watch everyone flying low), some class rooms, an apartment, the air parks' office, and beyond that 3 hangars. Beer is available, if you like San Miguel, and the locals are friendly.






Cheers!

I figured this thread needs a few more pictures. May not be as good as Johns, though. But still fun stuff!

Walker Lake, NV


Somewhere close to Rome Station south of the Owyhee River


I would have never seen this hole in the cliff more than a few hundred feet AGL


Some Elk up along the Sweet/Ola Valley (northwest of Boise)


My house down there in that subdivision


Off the coast of Malibu, CA


Chasing down a Scout out in the Owyhee's


Now this was crazy! But, flying Co-Pilot at the time was one of best Cub drivers in Idaho


Flying south along the Owyhee River in Oregon


Three Fingers out in the Owyhee Mountains


Don't get me wrong, I do get up in the nose bleed section once in a while. Flying back to Caldwell from JC passing Cascade to the north at sunset.

I spent the better part of 10,000 hours flying low as part of my job. We were required to take some extra precautions, like personal protective gear, shoulder harnesses, etc.

I would point out that flying low in Alaska, where I did the majority of the low flight noted above, is a WHOLE different world than flying low in the lower 48. In Alaska, there are VERY few "surprises" down low.

Not long ago, a friend and very experienced pilot hit an unmarked and essentially invisible wire on a small stream in the west. Nobody got hurt, but a brand new airplane was badly damaged as a result. He was working, counting ducks, so had a reason to be down low.

I think LowflyinG3 pretty well laid it out for us, and quite accurately.

Military aircraft are a wild card that nobody can predict, and there are a LOT of MTR's in the western US and some in AK. I too have nearly been run over by a couple F-16s as rounded a bend in a river, and had a wake vortex experience with a couple C-130's as I took off from a gravel bar.

Wires, met towers, cell towers scare the crap out of me, and they are all REALLY hard to see folks.

Note that a similar conversation appeared on another web forum some time back. One of the participants there hit a wire summer before last, flying low down a big western river, where the wire SHOULD have been fairly visible. Those things are really hard to see, and fortunately, he did a great job flying the airplane to an airport. Damaged airplane, but he survived.

Lots of wires out there folks.

MTV

In the first video we were low for the reason to check the surf because wanted to go surfing the spot.

On the second video we were just having fun. Lots of beach under us and is a deserted place.
Risk there could be birds or another plane, but no wires.
My plane has a STOL kit and it will be a 45mph to 50mph landing.
For sure there is risk.

Not point discussing higher is safer, and lower more fun.

Well I thought there was because you asked for;

"Tips , things to avoid, learn and advice for this kind of flying?
Or is this just plain wrong?"

And from a certain perspective, not necessarily mine, it is wrong.

I do believe you are in a little different world down there, although you still have factors to think about. I don't want people on this board with similar experience to you in a different geographic environment to "bundle" this discussion in their minds and think that it's "all the same". There are many little micro-environments with waaay different threats and threat levels experienced by different pilots here.

I believe I supplied you with;
1. Tips
2. Things to avoid
3. Things to learn
4. Advice for this kind of flying
5. Even eluded to the fact that in certain circumstances it is just plain wrong

I would definitely enjoy your flights with you but I waould be a different passenger to have on board than the unknowing.

One other little perspective to more clearly spell out here for all;
You seem to have two pilots with maybe around 30,000+ hours of combined experience with let's say a combined 20,000 to 25,000 hours of working in the low altitude environment and dealing with it's threats on a daily basis giving you multiple, actual, real life scenario's where things went bad for a full spectrum of different pilots in this environment and kinda leaning toward the fact that maybe you all should be thinking twice about going out and performing such activities. I'm not sure what that says but I'll let you decide.

Just think clearly about what you are doing and what the potential consequences are and if you decide that it is still necessary to do it please, please, please, do a recon flight at a few to five hundred feet first and always recognize that unless your eyes are trained to see obstacles you may have missed one. Even when your eyes are trained, you can still miss one, and even when you see one your brain must not get so distracted by something else as you come back up on it ten minutes later that you forget about it and still hit it. Most pilots hit wires or obstacles they knew were there. Especially with met towers, realize they are put up in a day. Just because there wasn't one last week doesn't mean there won't be one today.
Be careful and have fun.

I thought G3s earlier post was outstanding... although much harder for my uneducated mind to comprehend, this one was even better...

I posted on the thread that MTV alluded to in the other forum. In that thread I wrote that in our country, low flight will put you through a wire or obstacle sooner or later. I stand by that comment. For anyone that thumps their chest and spouts how many hours of accident free time they have, I can only say 'your time is coming' it is a statistical fact... Math and physics don't lie..

Norms comment on the GA safety record is somewhat skewed by the fact that GA craft are not built, equipped, nor maintained to the level of most professionally operated craft... but more importantly, neither are the operators.

The one tid bit of advice I will offer is this:

The romantic notion of low and slow is a farce.... It stems from the days of airplanes like Stearmanns and J3s.... Guess what? at WFO those airplanes are slow, yet fully in control and maneuverable. While I'm not suggesting you need to fly at high cruise, I think anyone who feels compelled to fly as slow as they can, while flying low level is not only dancing with the devil, but doing so at an unnecessary cost... an opinion of course

Take care, Rob

mtv wrote:I would point out that flying low in Alaska, where I did the majority of the low flight noted above, is a WHOLE different world than flying low in the lower 48. In Alaska, there are VERY few "surprises" down low.

Like I've said for a loooong time on here, if I flew in Nevada like I did in Arctic Alaska, I'd be dead in the first 15 minutes. Apples and oranges NOE flying up there compared to down here.

Flying 1400 hrs a year to the same places over and over and over again in light, dark, shit wx, good wx, I KNEW every inch of every route down to the individual willow bushes on the knolls. Ain't the same deal Lower 48, even in the wilds of Nevada.

Fly smart, for the most part you'll have fun. Fly dumb, we'll be posting about you on here.

Gump