robw56 wrote:That picture was straight from foreflights website.

Regarding the 2000ft towers east of town here. You can measure on Google earth how far the guy wires spread out. You can see the big concrete blocks they are secured to. The furthest ones are about 1000ft from the base of the tower if I remember right.

Not on topic with the SV discussion, but a rule of thumb that my low-flying community uses is that guy wires can be ASSUMED to be secured to the ground at a distance of AT LEAST 1/2 the height of the tower.


On topic with the SV discussion, I'm not aware of ANY obstacle database (including the VNC's) that marks guy wires for towers. Why hang on the fact that SV doesn't? I mean, I wouldn't go flying around STARING at something like this at an altitude where smacking into a wire or tower would matter, but the fact that the information is there is enhancing in my opinion.

I think people get wrapped around the axle with the idea that people will literally try to "videogame in the sky" with stuff like SV. I think the proper way to think about it is like a 3-D map that you're looking at edgewise. There's an amazing amount of information you can glean from a quick glance at a chart like that. Surrounding and upcoming terrain elevations, obstacles, airspace boundaries, etc. The SAME data you can get from a VFR chart but with less mental processing. Which leaves more mental capacity for other tasks in the cockpit, such as aviating, navigating, and communicating.

I went ahead and pulled the trigger on Foreflight's SV. Next time I take the Wagon up I'll give it a good look over. I've got the Stratus 2 so can give the AHRS piece a good test as well. I've also got Garmin Pilot and will be curious to see how its SV compares to Foreflight's. I don't yet have the GDL 39 so can't test out Garmin Pilot's AHRS. Which reminds me, why has Garmin not changed the color of the GDL 39. Did they learn nothing from the Stratus 1? Or does the GDL 39 never overheat?

Regarding SV in VFR, since I'm flying behind the Skyview in the SQ2 I'm used to seeing SV as part of my instrument display. On a minimal MVFR day it did alert me to a tower I had yet to spot. Was off to the side so I'd have missed it anyway, but I can certainly see where it can enhance my SA in marginal conditions. Seeing a red pylon bobbing around on the screen coming closer was very easy to pick up in my peripheral vision with my attention focused outside the plane.

Nosedragger wrote:I looked through their FAQ's and couldn't tell where the data came from. If this was an overlay of current VFR charts, that would be incredible. I'll probably get it anyway to try. I found out the difference between the cool but unreliable weather on foreflight and the not so cool but reliable XM weather on the 396 last Summer. Ipads don't work everywhere.

Are you saying that you were outside the range of an ADS-B tower, so that you couldn't get ADS-B weather on your iPad? If so, that's certainly the case, that you have to be able to receive the ground-based ADS-B transmissions, whereas XM comes from satellites. Otherwise, I find ADS-B weather to be plenty reliable, taking into account that both have the same delays, i.e., what you're seeing on your screen is several minutes, sometimes as much as 18-20 minutes, delayed, so it's not real time like onboard radar. But with the ADS-B towers pretty much fully distributed now, it's pretty rare not to be in range of at least one or two of them, even while flying in the Colorado mountains, except down in the canyons.

Cary

Cary wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:I looked through their FAQ's and couldn't tell where the data came from. If this was an overlay of current VFR charts, that would be incredible. I'll probably get it anyway to try. I found out the difference between the cool but unreliable weather on foreflight and the not so cool but reliable XM weather on the 396 last Summer. Ipads don't work everywhere.

Are you saying that you were outside the range of an ADS-B tower, so that you couldn't get ADS-B weather on your iPad? If so, that's certainly the case, that you have to be able to receive the ground-based ADS-B transmissions, whereas XM comes from satellites. Otherwise, I find ADS-B weather to be plenty reliable, taking into account that both have the same delays, i.e., what you're seeing on your screen is several minutes, sometimes as much as 18-20 minutes, delayed, so it's not real time like onboard radar. But with the ADS-B towers pretty much fully distributed now, it's pretty rare not to be in range of at least one or two of them, even while flying in the Colorado mountains, except down in the canyons.

Cary

It is rare, so rare that it caught me by surprise coming back to U12 from Bozeman over Mammoth picking my way between red and green amoebas. It doesn't just freeze the last image either, it hashmarks the whole overlay. Luckily I'm old school enough to remember how to milk info out of flight watch. It craps out half way to Cody from u12 too. Loads up again at Buffalo Bill's reservoir.

The reason I brought up the tower bit is that in most other ways SV mimics or attempts to mimic terrain features. Sectional charts make no such claims other than to represent terrain features with by color and contour lines. What they represent is an extremely dense information source in graphic form. Objects like tower symbols are not representative of the objects themselves. They convey the suggestion to seek more information. Beginning navigators in low VFR conditions could be lulled into screwing up if they become dependent on SV for basic navigation. That's all. I intend to put one in the Zenith.

Nosedragger wrote:...I found out the difference between the cool but unreliable weather on foreflight and the not so cool but reliable XM weather on the 396 last Summer. Ipads don't work everywhere.

iPads do work everywhere, but I'm pretty sure what you meant was that your weather display in Foreflight quit updating. That would be because your iPad no longer had a data connection.

There are three ways, that I'm aware of, to receive weather in Foreflight.

First is from Foreflight itself which requires a connection to the Internet. This could be a WiFi connection like you might have at home, your hangar, a FBO, a Coffee Shop, anywhere you can access a WiFi signal. Or from a Cellular network assuming your iPad is cellular capable and you have activated it with your phone company. As long as your iPad has a cellular connection that is strong enough to support a data stream the Weather displayed on Foreflight will update. If you are flying where you have no cellular service, or the service is too weak to support data, the weather display will not update.

Second is ADS-B Weather which requires you have a Stratus device, and that it's connected to your iPad via Stratus WiFi. As long as Stratus can receive data from the ADS-B network your weather display will update.

Third is XM Weather which requires a Baron Mobile link to work with Foreflight.

If you want weather ALL the time, and you fly in remote areas but only in the lower 48, then you want XM Weather. If you fly in Alaska XM Weather will not work everywhere, but neither will ADS-B, nor will Cellular.

For me, someone not wanting to fly in or near storm systems, and mostly flying in the western U.S., Canada, and Alaska, Foreflight's built in weather display from a cellular connection is sufficient - most of the time. There are times when the weather display quits updating due to a lost cellular signal, but if I'm anywhere near civilization I'll soon fly over/near a town and probably regain cellular connectivity and the weather display will update.

If I'm flying too high to receive a cellular signal and in most of the lower 48 or some parts of Alaska, I'll turn on Stratus, and Foreflight will then use ADS-B weather for its display.

I wish there was a weather solution that worked everywhere I fly all the time, but until that happens I'll need to fly a hybrid solution using two or more technologies.

Hope this description helps.

If you're ipad shopping, spring for the memory. I bought the 16 gig version and I'm having trouble. Weight and balance, syn vis not working because of the need for an apple update I don't have a lot of things besides foreflight either but the 8.1 ipad upgrade needs 6.8 gig to complete the process. I've got 6.5 left. Feeling dumb for not going with the 32 gig to start with.

Nosedragger wrote:If you're ipad shopping, spring for the memory. I bought the 16 gig version and I'm having trouble. Weight and balance, syn vis not working because of the need for an apple update I don't have a lot of things besides foreflight either but the 8.1 ipad upgrade needs 6.8 gig to complete the process. I've got 6.5 left. Feeling dumb for not going with the 32 gig to start with.

Yup. Foreflight strongly encourages (i.e. requires) at least 32gig.

Mister701 wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:If you're ipad shopping, spring for the memory. I bought the 16 gig version and I'm having trouble. Weight and balance, syn vis not working because of the need for an apple update I don't have a lot of things besides foreflight either but the 8.1 ipad upgrade needs 6.8 gig to complete the process. I've got 6.5 left. Feeling dumb for not going with the 32 gig to start with.

Yup. Foreflight strongly encourages (i.e. requires) at least 32gig.

However, there's a pretty easy work-around. Foreflight airport and mapping data is huge, so if you delete the last FF update, then do the iPad update, then reinstall all of the deleted charts and plates, you've updated everything easily. I was having the same problem, mostly because I have too many other apps on my iPad. I thought I could just delete FF and reinstall it, but when I contacted FF by email, they suggested deleting the maps and charts, then reinstalling them. They said it was less cumbersome than deleting all of FF and reinstalling the whole thing, and the basic FF app without the charts and plates isn't all that big. I tried it; it worked.

Cary

Barnstormer wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:...I found out the difference between the cool but unreliable weather on foreflight and the not so cool but reliable XM weather on the 396 last Summer. Ipads don't work everywhere.

iPads do work everywhere, but I'm pretty sure what you meant was that your weather display in Foreflight quit updating. That would be because your iPad no longer had a data connection.

There are three ways, that I'm aware of, to receive weather in Foreflight.

First is from Foreflight itself which requires a connection to the Internet. This could be a WiFi connection like you might have at home, your hangar, a FBO, a Coffee Shop, anywhere you can access a WiFi signal. Or from a Cellular network assuming your iPad is cellular capable and you have activated it with your phone company. As long as your iPad has a cellular connection that is strong enough to support a data stream the Weather displayed on Foreflight will update. If you are flying where you have no cellular service, or the service is too weak to support data, the weather display will not update.

Second is ADS-B Weather which requires you have a Stratus device, and that it's connected to your iPad via Stratus WiFi. As long as Stratus can receive data from the ADS-B network your weather display will update.

Third is XM Weather which requires a Baron Mobile link to work with Foreflight.

If you want weather ALL the time, and you fly in remote areas but only in the lower 48, then you want XM Weather. If you fly in Alaska XM Weather will not work everywhere, but neither will ADS-B, nor will Cellular.

For me, someone not wanting to fly in or near storm systems, and mostly flying in the western U.S., Canada, and Alaska, Foreflight's built in weather display from a cellular connection is sufficient - most of the time. There are times when the weather display quits updating due to a lost cellular signal, but if I'm anywhere near civilization I'll soon fly over/near a town and probably regain cellular connectivity and the weather display will update.

If I'm flying too high to receive a cellular signal and in most of the lower 48 or some parts of Alaska, I'll turn on Stratus, and Foreflight will then use ADS-B weather for its display.

I wish there was a weather solution that worked everywhere I fly all the time, but until that happens I'll need to fly a hybrid solution using two or more technologies.

Hope this description helps.

Well put. As usual, more money installed will fix my problems.

Cary wrote:

Mister701 wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:If you're ipad shopping, spring for the memory. I bought the 16 gig version and I'm having trouble. Weight and balance, syn vis not working because of the need for an apple update I don't have a lot of things besides foreflight either but the 8.1 ipad upgrade needs 6.8 gig to complete the process. I've got 6.5 left. Feeling dumb for not going with the 32 gig to start with.

Yup. Foreflight strongly encourages (i.e. requires) at least 32gig.

However, there's a pretty easy work-around. Foreflight airport and mapping data is huge, so if you delete the last FF update, then do the iPad update, then reinstall all of the deleted charts and plates, you've updated everything easily. I was having the same problem, mostly because I have too many other apps on my iPad. I thought I could just delete FF and reinstall it, but when I contacted FF by email, they suggested deleting the maps and charts, then reinstalling them. They said it was less cumbersome than deleting all of FF and reinstalling the whole thing, and the basic FF app without the charts and plates isn't all that big. I tried it; it worked.

Cary

Thanks Cary, that sounds fairly painless.

You can also do the update by plugging the iPad into a computer running iTunes. It will ask if you want to update the iPad to the latest software. Doing it that way requires far less available memory, iirc.

Took my first "cross country" with Foreflight's new Synthetic Vision coupled to the Stratus 2.

The first thing I had to do was calibrate it, meaning set the horizon, especially important since I was flying the 185. Nose dragger might not be as critical. I was surprised that when, after having lunch with a friend and flying back, that I had to calibrate it again. I'd of thought it would store the calibration. Perhaps there is a way and I just missed it. Annoying for sure. The pictures below are from the trip down, split screen and full screen. I was flying over mostly farm country so the terrain display isn't exciting. I'll cover the trip back below.


On my way back I flew over the top of KAUS, and right in the middle of a push. I had traffic targets all over the sectional, around and under me. I was surprised none of the targets appeared in the Synthetic Vision. Seems dangerous to me.

I was not surprised to see myself as a target indicating I was above myself 2,900 feet. I've seen this before. It has been reported by controllers as well, ghost ADS-B targets, and duplicate ADS-B targets. ADS-B is a complete joke and crap technology. And it will get pilots and their passengers killed. When there are targets all over the screen it's hard not to fixate on the screen instead of looking outside. ADS-B is a bad, bad idea.

Synthetic Vision on an iPad, in VFR flying? From what I experienced, also a bad idea. As I've stated before I've got Synthetic Vision with the Dynon Skyview in the SQ-2. But for me that's different because on the same screen I've all the all the engine displays including CHT, plus OAT, and wind direction, and a bunch of other data. Synthetic Vision is just a part of the total display.

On the iPad, Synthetic Vision is a separate display, and the tendency for me was to fixate on it. Granted, it's a new thing in the wagon so that explains some of the fixation, but I don't see it providing anything of value under VFR conditions. Where it would be useful for sure would be if one found themselves unintentionally in IMC. BUT, unless one fly's behind glass constantly the display takes some getting used to. An inadvertent IMC would not be the place to learn. That would need to be done in VFR and would require a safety pilot in my way of thinking.

I can see it also being very useful in the IFR environment as a backup to the primary display should that fail. You'd of course use it as secondary to the remaining primary instruments.

I also have Garmin Pilot on my iPad with Synthetic Vision, but I don't yet have the GDL 39 so don't have the attitude display. I need to get one so I can compare the two. I do fly in low MVFR a lot, and in 1 mile clear of clouds a few times a year. Under these conditions Synthetic Vision will be of value, but I'll need to practice in VFR with a friend as safety pilot before using it.

Barnstormer wrote:Took my first "cross country" with Foreflight's new Synthetic Vision coupled to the Stratus 2.

On my way back I flew over the top of KAUS, and right in the middle of a push. I had traffic targets all over the sectional, around and under me. I was surprised none of the targets appeared in the Synthetic Vision. Seems dangerous to me.

No disagreement about the current poor state of the ADS-B deployment. In particular the non-existent security and ease of spoofing is extremely troubling. This must be fixed before wide adoption.

There is a an interesting nuance in expected ADS-B functionality: without ADS-B out capability, traffic will never be correctly displayed, and what you do get cannot be relied on. Additionally Big Iron doesn't use ADS-B yet because they have other solutions costing too much to abandon before it is depreciated. The good news is WITH ADS-B out -onboard, the FAA combines radar returns with ADS-B returns so you will see everything painting to ATC on the Stratus type devices.

ADS-B has two elements: ADS-B in (978Mhz) and ADS-B out (1090Mhz--Mode S transponder). The Stratus and all the other cool products discussed on BCP are only ADS-B in. The ground transmitters talking to our Stratus devices will only transmit traffic info in response to an ADS-B out ping from your mode S transponder.

Edit: this above bit is a simplification to point out the big picture, there is additional nuance, particularly with high end ADS-B receivers "listening" on 1090Mhz for plane to plane telemetry. If anyone is interested in that say so

Lacking ADS-B out capability means the only traffic info you get will be your device "hearing" a ground response generated for a nearby Mode S equipped aircraft. If no Mode S aircraft nearby you, you get nothing.

This is by design to reduce radio congestion and the risk of missing nearby traffic. In a sense each ADS-B in message is tailored for the machine pinging out via ADS-B out. Great idea, poor deployment.

Add a Mode S transponder and the picture changes considerably. If you have mode S properly configured, when your transponder pings at 1090Mhz, it will send a message to the 987Mhz transmitter, and have it collect all the targets painting on BOTH the radar side and ADS-B side, thereby giving an accurate traffic picture for all the targets painting nearby your location.

Again this is the design, I make no claims about how well the system currently meets expectations. Looking historically at other such initiatives I suspect the system will cost way more than budgeted, suck until folks like us hold the FAA's feet to the fire (which I think we are doing well!) and the FAA addresses the failings, which may take years longer than expected. I do think in the end, they will solve the issues and ADS-B will be something we can depend on. All the questionable functionality is software based, and I expect near to 2020 there will be updates to improve behavior and function. In a sense General Aviation is the beta tester for the airlines

For those of us going Experimental it is pretty easy: I have a mode S Trig transponder with ADS-B out that I paid maybe $1900 for. The certified story is not as rosy, and I wonder if the best bet there is to wait until the price comes down, as it did with the 406 ELT's.

Bottom line is without ADS-B out-- ignore the traffic.

One last thing: ghost images are often a result of poorly designed ADS-B in software (ground station doesn't handle removing dupes from radar/ADS-B returns). The standard contains mitigation via "ownship" suppression, via the identity of the ADS-B out signature, however generally only the most expensive, certified packages correctly handle this feature. I know GRT does on the Experimental side, perhaps Dynon also has a setting. Suggest looking into if the Stratus supports this. Again, with no ADS-B out this will persist, even with updated software/configuration. Long term expect improvements as the software improves and more come online with ADS-B out.

P.S: if you are a ham radio person compare ADS-B to APRS and you will find the FAA lifted it wholesale from us hams without adding any of the security hams can't have due to transparency requirements.

Edit: Ghost images; generalizing for brevity