Question regarding the time a insurance policy requires for you to get time for a new type of aircraft you have no previous time in - is that dual time with an instructor - or can just be with a PPL that has time in that type of aircraft (basically can one meet that time by flying with your buddy that has experience in the aircraft type but is not an instructor)?

Mine negotiated. I had to have dual time (with a CFI) for my plane but I couldn't find an instructor that had my type of plane. I called them up and asked how much PIC time I needed in type to waive the dual time required. They said 10 hours so I went flying with a good friend of mine that has the same type plane and logged PIC time and was good to go for insurance purposes.


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My experience is that the dual time has to be with a CFI. I asked the same question as CamTom and my broker said 5hrs of pic in type would work.

I suggest that you get it in writing from your own insurance company. Don't accept what you read here or elsewhere on the Internet. The worst event would be for you to prang during those hours and find that you're not covered because you didn't follow their rules.

Also, don't use whatever hour requirement there is to go for a cross country ride. You need to learn how to handle the airplane in that time; any 5 year old can fly straight and level, but you need to know how it stalls, how it lands, basically how it handles. Depending on the make and model, it can be a whole lot different from what you're familiar with.

Cary

I had a similar response as CamTom. Insurance wanted 2 hrs dual or 5 hours pic. Couldn't find an instructor easily enough, so I flew the first five hours without coverage. In my case, I did maximize cross country time to minimize the risk while uninsured. Once I got my five hours and 3 landings (not an insurance requirement, just what it took me to get the hours) I started my real training flights.

Cary offers good advice. You need to accomplish two things in this process: First, you need to satisfy YOUR insurance company's requirements (not my insurance company's).

But more importantly, you need to get a good checkout to proficiency in the aircraft. And, frankly, this one is more critical.

Insurance requirements are all over the place. Shop around for insurance and find out what your insurer wants for check out. But be sure you get a good check out yourself.

And to paraphrase an old adage: A pilot who checks himself out in an airplane may have a fool for a student.

MTV

I've checked myself out in 2 different airplanes, and I agree. Although in both cases, I thoroughly devoured the POH, it's not the same.

The first one was a PA28 Archer II, one of the simpler airplanes to fly, with numbers very similar to a 172. It wasn't all that difficult, but I felt pretty uncomfortable for a few hours.

The second was a Mooney 231. I already had some experience in a C model, so the flying wasn't much different, but the 231 is a lot faster, and a much more capable airplane. Further, this one had a panel that you could not believe, with more doodads than any airliner of the era, including among other things color radar, a radar altimeter, a 3 axis autopilot with altitude capture and hold, an HSI, and a flight director, and even an airphone! I think that a good 50 hours had elapsed before I felt comfortable in that airplane, before I would take it into the soup. It was the equivalent of today's TAA, without the glass screens.

In both cases, though, I did what anyone should do to become familiar with a new airplane--stalls of all sorts, commercial maneuvers, multiple landings of each type, etc., etc. The Archer was one of the charter airplanes, so I needed to know its vagaries to make paying customers comfortable, and the Mooney owner wanted me to fly him and his wife regularly in all kinds of weather, so I really needed to know its panel in addition to being able to fly the airplane.

I'm always amazed at how many pilots, though, seem to brush off the insurance requirements as just so much annoyance. Doing it right really reduces the risk significantly.

Cary

mtv wrote:
And to paraphrase an old adage: A pilot who checks himself out in an airplane may have a fool for a student.

MTV

I don't entirely disagree and wouldn't recommend this method to everyone, however based on previous training, experience, and plane in question this route was acceptable for me.

Cary wrote:I suggest that you get it in writing from your own insurance company. Don't accept what you read here or elsewhere on the Internet. The worst event would be for you to prang during those hours and find that you're not covered because you didn't follow their rules.

Yep - was just trying to get an idea what I should expect - broker said they would be sending the details on how much I'll need to fly as dual - I was checking in to see if there was some general knowledge on the subject - I don't think there is a single thing on the interweb I would take at face value - certainly not over a written contract.

Cary wrote:Also, don't use whatever hour requirement there is to go for a cross country ride. You need to learn how to handle the airplane in that time; any 5 year old can fly straight and level, but you need to know how it stalls, how it lands, basically how it handles. Depending on the make and model, it can be a whole lot different from what you're familiar with.Cary

I'm not looking to do the bare minimum, its just most the guys I know with 180's around here have 10x the experience in them than any of the instructors around. I'll be going from a 182 to a 180 (and before the 182 all I had over flown was tail draggers) - once you are airborne the 182/180 handle the same. Most of my time will be remembering what a rudder is when one is landing and taking off (I'm over simplifying - but much of the air-work is the same in the 182/180 - especially the straight tail 182).

mtv wrote:
And to paraphrase an old adage: A pilot who checks himself out in an airplane may have a fool for a student.

MTV

I agree. My friend (like many high time-in-type folks out there) has a bunch of experience in my type, but lacks a CFI ticket. I bet I learned more from him than I would have if I'd have bought my plane and found an instructor to fly around with to log the dual time. Unless I went flying with Don Lee, anyway.

Also, so that anyone who reads this in the future doesn't get confused, I posted my experience with my insurance broker/company. Your mileage may vary, but had I not talked to someone and heard of a similar situation I'd have never known that negotiation was a possibility. I wasted tons of time trying to find and arrange a CFI with my type plane that was available the same time as I was. I'm glad I found out before I wasted more time and a bunch of money, too.

CamTom12 wrote:

mtv wrote:
And to paraphrase an old adage: A pilot who checks himself out in an airplane may have a fool for a student.

MTV

I agree. My friend (like many high time-in-type folks out there) has a bunch of experience in my type, but lacks a CFI ticket. I bet I learned more from him than I would have if I'd have bought my plane and found an instructor to fly around with to log the dual time. Unless I went flying with Don Lee, anyway.

Also, so that anyone who reads this in the future doesn't get confused, I posted my experience with my insurance broker/company. Your mileage may vary, but had I not talked to someone and heard of a similar situation I'd have never known that negotiation was a possibility. I wasted tons of time trying to find and arrange a CFI with my type plane that was available the same time as I was. I'm glad I found out before I wasted more time and a bunch of money, too.

Cam,

Note that I didn't mention the term "CFI" anywhere in my previous post. I've seen CFIs who would "check someone out" in an airplane the CFI had never actually flown.

That's not what I'm talking about....I'm talking about precisely what you described, whether the "check airman" has a CFI or not. Just be sure you're comfy with the insurance situation.

That said, any CFI who has done much flight instruction MAY be a little better prepared to deal with "surprises". Not that I've ever seen that, mind......

Get a GOOD checkout. Have I checked out myself? Yep, after a few thousand hours in Cessna 180/185, and oh yeah a few hours in 172s, I hopped in a C 170 and checked myself out. And I checked myself out in a PA-11, as well. I'd cleared that with my insurance company, based on a bit of J-3 and PA-18, PA-12, etc time. But I still had to learn to fly those planes, and I may well have gained proficiency quicker with someone in the right seat.

MTV

mtv wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:

mtv wrote:
And to paraphrase an old adage: A pilot who checks himself out in an airplane may have a fool for a student.

MTV

I agree. My friend (like many high time-in-type folks out there) has a bunch of experience in my type, but lacks a CFI ticket. I bet I learned more from him than I would have if I'd have bought my plane and found an instructor to fly around with to log the dual time. Unless I went flying with Don Lee, anyway.

Also, so that anyone who reads this in the future doesn't get confused, I posted my experience with my insurance broker/company. Your mileage may vary, but had I not talked to someone and heard of a similar situation I'd have never known that negotiation was a possibility. I wasted tons of time trying to find and arrange a CFI with my type plane that was available the same time as I was. I'm glad I found out before I wasted more time and a bunch of money, too.

Cam,

Note that I didn't mention the term "CFI" anywhere in my previous post. I've seen CFIs who would "check someone out" in an airplane the CFI had never actually flown.

That's not what I'm talking about....I'm talking about precisely what you described, whether the "check airman" has a CFI or not. Just be sure you're comfy with the insurance situation.

That said, any CFI who has done much flight instruction MAY be a little better prepared to deal with "surprises". Not that I've ever seen that, mind......

Get a GOOD checkout. Have I checked out myself? Yep, after a few thousand hours in Cessna 180/185, and oh yeah a few hours in 172s, I hopped in a C 170 and checked myself out. And I checked myself out in a PA-11, as well. I'd cleared that with my insurance company, based on a bit of J-3 and PA-18, PA-12, etc time. But I still had to learn to fly those planes, and I may well have gained proficiency quicker with someone in the right seat.

MTV

Mike,
Good point, I saw "checkout" and associated with "sign-off." We're on the same page there.

Except the guy who'd be willing to sit right seat and instruct you in the PA-11. He's on another page altogether

I checked a lot of pilots out in single seat spray planes. It had more to do with technique than POH. Nobody, even Billy Howell, ever gave me a POH for a spray plane. R-1340 starts harder than R-985 but you teach that on the ground. Starting turboprop engines is a whole different thing, and can get very expensive.

If a spray pilot is really interested in stall and spin recovery, that really worries me. Knowledge is fine, but that is the wrong orientation for maneuvering flight.

mtv wrote: ...You need to accomplish two things in this process: First, you need to satisfy YOUR insurance company's requirements (not my insurance company's). But more importantly, you need to get a good checkout to proficiency in the aircraft. ....

I respectfully disagree, sort of.
IMHO you need a good checkout to the point of being safe, but I think even a long (15 hour) checkout is not gonna result in "proficiency".
I think an aircraft checkout is like a private pilot certificate- just a license to learn. Actual proficiency comes with time and experience.

Insurance requirements are weird.
When I bought my old C170, I had a two-year-old PP ticket and about 250 C150/152 hours.
Insurance company wanted a tailwheel endorsement and 5 hours of dual before they'd cover me solo.
OK, no problem- I needed every bit of that to be safe. Proficience came along later, gradually.
When I bought my 180, I had a couple thousand hours in Cessna taildraggers, but no 180 time. They wanted "a checkout". I asked about how many hours, but they didn't care- just wanted a CFI to sign me off as capable. Perfect, a buddy signed me off over coffee so my insurance would cover me. I did however get 3 hours or so of checkout from the seller before I flew it home.

A new guy on my airport has a 180-- he's flown it for years on straight floats, but recently put it on wheels.
No tailwheel time whatsoever. His insurance company want 15 hours dual before they'll cover him solo.
Seems excessive to me, but there you are.
He has about 13 hours, and is safe enough in it to start flying alone and gaining proficiency, but unfortunately his CFI bunged up his leg & can't / doesn't want to fly, so that last two hours may be a while in coming. Bummer.

mtv wrote:And to paraphrase an old adage: A pilot who checks himself out in an airplane may have a fool for a student.

I don't think even the old guys around here are old enough to be able to answer this question with direct experience but what about back in say 1953 when the C180 was a brand new model and there was no one with experience in it? Did everyone travel back to Wichita and get checked out at the factory? I really am curious how this was dealt with. Many of us building experimentals are facing a similar issue; required dual time but no CFI with any experience in type. Many are just going uninsured for the first ten hours but to me that seems very risky.

whee wrote:

mtv wrote:And to paraphrase an old adage: A pilot who checks himself out in an airplane may have a fool for a student.

I don't think even the old guys around here are old enough to be able to answer this question with direct experience but what about back in say 1953 when the C180 was a brand new model and there was no one with experience in it? Did everyone travel back to Wichita and get checked out at the factory? I really am curious how this was dealt with. Many of us building experimentals are facing a similar issue; required dual time but no CFI with any experience in type. Many are just going uninsured for the first ten hours but to me that seems very risky.

I'm too young to know, but willing to bet that insurance requirements were a little more forgiving back then. Society has become pretty litigious, but that's a topic for a forum that doesn't exist.

IMHO someone who for example has some 182 time and some 170 time doesn't really need a checkout to fly a 180.
And someone with 180 time doesn't need a 185 checkout, other than the quirks of the injection system.
All aircraft have some quirks, but to some extent "an airplane is an airplane".

I've always chuckled at the idea of a multi-thousand-hour pilot getting a BFR from a 300-hour CFI--
in that situation, who's really teaching who?
And as far as having a fool for a student, some people are fools no matter how much dual instruction they've gotten -- or given!

Good discussion!

Hotrod: We're parsing words here, and definitions vary. To me, in THIS context, the term "proficient" implies the new owner has sufficient skill and knowledge of this plane that he or she is pretty unlikely to hurt them or the plane.

You're right that this is a far cry from being "handy" with the plane, if you will. But, to quote Cam, I think we're on the same page.

Whee,

Your point is well taken. I was turned loose in my first tailwheel airplane after about an hour and a half of dual with an old timer. This was before the endorsement came to be. Of course in that time we did multiple one wheel landings, crosswinds, etc. I sure wasn't well prepared, but I didn't break anything.

But to your point, virtually all the pilots back in the early fifties learned to fly in fairly demanding airplanes, and almost all had a fair bit of tailwheel time. If you learned to fly in a Luscomb, I doubt that a 170 would offer much challenge. Lots of these folks were ex military pilots.

And, airplanes were cheap then, instructors were everywhere, and most of all, student pilots were taught stick and rudder skills thoroughly in primary.

I finished the PPL in 41 hours in 69, not because I was a super student, but I knew what a rudder was for. The guy who taught me had O. Wright's signature on his original license.....

MTV

What MTV said. There was no TW endorsement. We were taught how to fly well in a contact environment before we were given crutches like airspeed indicators.

hotrod180 wrote:IMHO someone who for example has some 182 time and some 170 time doesn't really need a checkout to fly a 180.
And someone with 180 time doesn't need a 185 checkout, other than the quirks of the injection system.
All aircraft have some quirks, but to some extent "an airplane is an airplane".

I've always chuckled at the idea of a multi-thousand-hour pilot getting a BFR from a 300-hour CFI--
in that situation, who's really teaching who?
And as far as having a fool for a student, some people are fools no matter how much dual instruction they've gotten -- or given!

+1 I won't go in to the situations this applied to me but I agree.