I had problems with a couple Gill batteries in a row a while back. The voltage at the terminals would dip down to around 9 volts (from a 12.1 volt static voltage) while cranking, despite being brand new. I got frustrated with slow and unsuccessful starts, and really tired of hand propping. I got an Odyssey battery to try.

The load line of the battery was incredible, and the prop swung giddily fast. The starting issue seemed almost worse, however, and the Odyssey simply does not have the stored energy of the conventional batteries and started losing steam after just 30 seconds of cumulative cranking- much faster than the conventional battery. I also saw the first kickback I have ever seen...and somehow did not break anything. I have an old adapter and starter. The voltage during cranking never got below 11.7 volts until it would begin to die fast.

I got rid of the Odyssey and got a Concorde. The voltage never gets below 10.5v on a cold startup, and the engine generally starts on a few blades.

The only explanation I have for the train of events was that the Odyssey battery swung the prop fast enough to decouple the impulse coupling of at least one mag (Im not even certain if both mags have the coupling, and it isn't mentioned in my manual). I believe that is why I witnessed a kickback. The kickback actually seemed to happen before I had released the key.

Soy the joy of the new MT prop was dampened by this issue, second start and a kickback, crap there went my starter drive. I had the old style boat anchor energizer starter and put on an older TCM starter hoping it was just the starter itself, no luck.

So my question is what do I do now, it's Sunday so have to wait till tomorrow to get a mechanic to look over it with me. Do you just have to remove the bearing and associated parts in the starter drive adaptor (is that even the proper name?) and hope it's a clean break on the spring and IRAN the drive? Do I possibly have a drive that is not as stout as others?

If you're lucky you have an engine mount you can "nod" forward to remove the adapter, check that all the spring is accounted for and replace with an 'old style' adapter if it is not already (may need shim). As I posted earlier probably best to double check timing at the same time. I'd be interested to know what style adapter you have that just broke as there is a fundamental difference between the two that probably makes a big difference when running an MT.

Skaly, this was one of the better discussions I found on the topic https://www.euroga.org/forums/flying/23 ... tor?page=2

NZ, thanks. I believe that the engine probly has the newer style adapter as it is a 2009 0-470, assuming though. We just re-timed the mags when we put the prop on so I doubt that's the problem. I'll report back when I have more information, may not be able to tear into it until Tuesday, but hopefully tomorrow as I won't sleep good till I know there's not metal floating around in my engine.

It is possible to "nod" my motor forward by removing top bolts on mount and hanging on a hoist, done that before but it's still really tight back there.

Remove the lightweight starter. Sell it. Get an "old fashioned" heavy duty Energizer. Then call Niagara. Get a "classic" style adapter. Problem solved. The MT prop is OK. Continental and AP's like to point fingers at it.

Also, now, when I have a difficult start (fourth hot start of the morning when I broke mine). If it coughs or sputters, don't keep cranking. Let go of the ignition, let it stop, count to five, then try again. The SA spring can only break if the starter is engaged.

My 1964 182-G broke two starter adapter springs in the first 150 hours on a Continental factory rebuilt zero time IO 550 (Petersen conversion). First one with the previous owner. Continental replaced SA under warranty with the same style. Second time happened with me. I made the changes described above.

BTW, when it happens on the water, as it did with me, it's a big problem!

Good luck with it.

Pierre

Pierre, I do have an energizer starter. The starter drive was damaged on the very first start and gave up completely after the next start. I'm sweating bullets that my engine with only 500 hours ate metal.

Sounds like best case scenario is only having to fix the starter drive (or replace with classic style). Fixing/replacing the starter drive may require pulling the entire motor, $$$ & down time. Fears of full on IRAN are dancing through my head...no sleep tonight [emoji20]

Don't sweat it too much Skaly, if it's anything like my two spring failures it was a simple (but expensive ) break in the spring and no metal lost (neither time did the engine actually start). They were both with the new style adapter and both within a 50hr period.
If you can nod your engine forward you should be able to remove the adapter a lot more easily than if you don't have the swinging mount.
I've always had the original Energizer starter so the only changes made since have been the type of starter adapter (back to the classic style), seems to have it sorted now (touch wood) .

Aircraft magneto service in Seattle, retarded the impulse coupling in my left magneto (the one used for starting) and also bought the old style heavy starter, that seemed to solve the problem.(700hrs trouble free, knock n wood )

I have the MT on my Scout. Battery was getting weak but was due for annual last Monday. Went flying day before and had a starter kickback with a hot engine. Broke the housing on SkyTec starter. Learned my lesson to change the battery as soon as it doesn't spin the prop with gusto.

motoadve wrote: Aircraft magneto service in Seattle, retarded the impulse coupling in my left magneto (the one used for starting) .........

My O470K has impulses on both mags, and you start it on both. Most if not all of the Continental's Im familiar with have double impulses as well.

Skalywag, you say you'd just re-timed the mags. No offense, but is it possible you timed them without first snapping the impulse couplings? That would have set the timing at TDC instead of at 22 BTDC or wherever it should be.

Thanks Moto, glad to hear you haven't had any issues over that many hours.

Been on the horn all morning talking about this issue with different mechanics and Niagra who overhauls the starter drives. Gonna cost me atleast 2 weeks downtime and $1000+. My motor did start so I may have more problems than just a busted starter drive.

My IA who has replaced many drives said I should be fine and it's almost always a clean break with the new style drive, I sure hope he's right.

I was told it's important to check not only the mag timing but also that the impulse couplings are firing properly. Gonna pull the drive this afternoon, drain oil and cut filter. There should be a gasket with a screen on the prop governor to check as well. Tryin not to sweat too much till then [emoji28]

Hotrod, an A&P n my IA timed the mags at annual in a really good shop I've used for years. We'll check everything again once I get through the next step of damage assessment.

So my takeaway from all of this so far is the new Continental Starter Adapters are the primary problem, which mostly surfaces when a light-weight prop is installed, and can be exacerbated by some, if not all, lightweight starters. Oh, and poor batteries, cables, and ends also exacerbate the problem. Skalywag you definitely have that problem as well since ever since I've known you the prop swung backwards before it swung forwards.

Hopefully an old style adapter (with spacer) cures the problem. Can't wait to find out. Good luck my friend!

Phil, as I understood it, the folks at Niagra did not concur with the new style being the problem. I was told that on the new style drive the spring will break clean. The old style it will distort the spring which can cause it to not fully disengage and grind while flying, thereby putting metal in your oil over time. The new style will just break right now and is a better bet to not have metal particles go into your oil.

My prop does not always swing back before it goes forward but has definitely done it enough to seem normal, it sounds as though it would be abnormal for a new style drive to be able to slowly go out. My motor was a factory reman 2009 so should have the new style. I will know when I look at the drive again. The new drives have a snap ring on the inner and outer part of the bearing race, the classic only have it on the outer race.

Skalywag, I helped my friend (he was an IA mechanic) with a 55 180 pull the firewall forward ahead when he needed to put new silk thread on his oil pump that was leaking. We figured it was easier to do that than remove the engine from the engine mount. That would have required exhaust and a bunch of other stuff being removed. Since I was smaller, I was on the backside of the firewall and helping guide things with the hoist.

Thanks Marty

I hope I haven't come across as dissing the MT prop or pointing fingers. The little I flew it was super impressed with the performance, like holy sh*t impressed!!! Won't know for sure what really happened till I get to dig deeper, on the way to the hangar now

The primary problem is lightweight starters or weak battery causing low cranking RPM. Classic adapter helps only when coupled with a heavy duty Energizer starter.

My take on it is there are two different problems with the adapters and the two styles. The new style has no tolerance whatsoever for any backward movement of the prop as the spring is permanently engaged on the shaft - this is most likely your problem Skaly and is likely a clean spring break with no lost metal. The second problem is the classic style that gets bound up, overheats and makes metal because the starter did not disengage, a worse problem. This often caused by lightweight starters not disengaging adequately.
Personally I would be changing adapter styles if you have new style and are running the MT so you have some tolerance for backward movement. BTW it happens to other prop types too!! My issues cost me many $$$$ after two breaks, one of which the aircraft was stranded in a remote location so I had time to do a lot of enquiring!!!!
I feel for ya!

Thanks for all the information everyone, it is really helpful that others have been down this road already, as unfortunate as that may be. Much appreciated!!!

So what I've discovered today is that I do indeed have the new style starter drive. Cut the oil filter open and it was clean, it's a tempest and has the internal magnet which was also clean. Pulled the prop governor but don't have the gasket with the screen so no info there other than nothing shimmering or that would stick to a magnet. Gonna have my IA look at the filter paper for a second opinion tomorrow and send an oil sample off for analysis.

Got everything ready to pull the starter drive but need an extra set of hands so a friend is gonna help in the morning.

Still trying to get as much info as possible on classic vs new style starter drive. When we remove the drive I can inspect the shaft gear and discern if there was any damage there, but will be sending off to Niagra ASAP for an inspection and overhaul or exchange.