First I apologize if this has been beaten to death already, did a little searching around and didn't find anything speaking to this question.

Is there language anywhere that prohibits landing in the grass next to a runway? I suppose careless and reckless could always be cited...

Thanks

7acdriver wrote:First I apologize if this has been beaten to death already, did a little searching around and didn't find anything speaking to this question.

Is there language anywhere that prohibits landing in the grass next to a runway? I suppose careless and reckless could always be cited...

Thanks

This might apply: FAR 91.103“Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.”

It might be tough unless you can find some current data.

I'm sorry you'll have to connect the dots for me on your line of thought. I land on gravel bars and strips all over that have no 'published data'... If there's no data to become familiar with I don't think this necessarily prohibits it's use.

There is no regulation requiring that a pilot land on the runway at an airport. No regulation prohibits landing on a taxiway, grassy area, or parking ramp, though the airport itself might have rules prohibiting it.

There is also no regulation which specifically prohibits landing on a CLOSED runway, interestingly enough.

That said, if the airport has an issue with pilots landing anywhere but the runway, it's unlikely that fighting it is going to be worth the effort. I went through this to some extent at my previous home base, and while I basically prevailed, I also got really choosey about when I landed off-pavement. Having a cafe full of pilot-has-been's on their cell phones to the FAA complaining that some lunatic was landing "In a FIELD for god's sake!!!" didn't make my life any easier, and I quit doing it when the airport cafe was open.

And of course, if you break a three-dollar plastic sprinkler head and someone complains, then you're in for it with the FAA...damage to private property and all that.

The other concern I would put forth is the condition of the surface, just be prepared for the possibility that it might even be rougher then the average beach and cleverly disguised with green grass.

7acdriver wrote:I'm sorry you'll have to connect the dots for me on your line of thought. I land on gravel bars and strips all over that have no 'published data'... If there's no data to become familiar with I don't think this necessarily prohibits it's use.

The FAR is an open-ended regulation that puts the onus on PIC to figure out, ahead of time, if the airport manager is going to give you shit about it. I think that's the connection.

Like a lot of things in our world, the answer to that question is: It depends.

For example, here in Bozeman, if you tell the tower you’d like to land in the grass adjacent to runway 3, they’ll respond with: “Landing in the grass next to runway 3 is at the pilots risk.” They won’t clear you to land because they can’t....you’re not landing on one of their operating surfaces.

At an uncontrolled Airport, it’s totally up to the airport management, not the FAA. The FAA has no regulation that requires us to land on a “runway”.

That said, if anything goes wrong during that landing, resulting in any damage to anything, or loss of separation from other traffic, the FAA MAY come at you with their catch all “careless and reckless” reg, or as I call it, the “Failure to Do Right” clause.

A local airport may have policies, but enforcement is going to be done by local sheriffs deputy or muni. Police, who may or may not know anything about Aviation law.

Best to check with an airport management first, and as someone noted, find out how rough that infield is before you land.....a little grass can hide some interesting obstacles.

MTV

We often joke about it at FTG, but I don't think anyone has had the stones to try it yet. The jokes happened in earshot of a tower controller once and his reaction was, while humorous, less than willing to be complicit in any way.

Gravel bars, etc are not a valid comparison as there's no intended landing surface, so that's at your discretion. Landing within the boundaries of a known airfield is likely to have different potential outcome in the eyes of regulatory enforcement should anything go wrong. As MTV pointed out it might be doable but will be subjective. Personally I would have my AOPA legal plan paid up before I attempted it, but that's just me.

It is not a problem at many airports as long as you are courteous and safe, and avoid conflict with other traffic. Keep in mind dry grass, a healthy breeze, and a Continental with straight pipes can make it a really bad Idea this time of year. I just watched a couple acres burn up in about 2 minutes because a highway mower clipped a rock. Pilots tend to forget that airplanes are good fire starters.

This was very common in the past at both controlled and uncontrolled airports to help separate Ag from regular operations. But the cost and speed of modern Ag airplanes has changed that somewhat I expect.

If anything untoward happens in the process of landing off to the side of the runway which results in any kind of complaint to the FAA, you can count on a lot of hassle, perhaps a charge of "careless and reckless", and a number of sleepless nights, with the real possibility of having your certificate suspended. I don't know about running over a sprinkler head, but other possibilities aren't hard to imagine: a blown tire that puts the airplane up onto the tarmac and effectively closes the runway; an inadvertent nose over; a ground loop that does damage, either to the airplane or to something on the airport; someone who was on short final to land on the runway doing a go around, fearing that you were interfering with his landing.

If at a towered airport and tower actually denies your request (not the wishy washy "landing is at the pilot's risk"), but you do it anyway, then you will have specific regs that you've violated.

So it's best if you do your off airport landings really off airport, not next to an existing runway.

Cary

Everything said above is correct. I'll add landing AND taking off is at your own risk, whether you are at a controlled airport and a controller says it is, or your not. One of the strangest things I've ever heard, especially since one can't sue the government without the government's permission. I'm sure it was created to protect the controller's job and I guess I can understand that.

Anyway back to the subject at hand which usually translates into landing in the grass between the runway and the taxiway. Or in some instances, like at Whitehorse, landing just short of the pavement to get the bushwheel's spinning before they contact pavement.

First, don't ever land in any of the above mentioned areas unless you've walked them before and know there isn't something unseen that either you might damage or that might damage your plane.

Know that good and bad things can happen from landing these areas, depending on solar flares or the age of Aquarius and stuff like that. For instance:

At my former home airport in Texas I pioneered landing exclusively in the dirt (with some grass) between the runway and the hangars and between two taxiways. Fast forward 10 years and the airport owners, through private donations from pilots like myself, have approved and started an irrigation system so this area will become a nice adjacent grass strip, 17R if you will. That's a good thing.

On one of my trips to Alaska in the SQ2 the wind was howling in Alberta (I know I was shocked too). I wanted to land at Three Hills for fuel but the wind was 35kts across the runway. No problem I told myself, I'll just land into the wind into the knee high grass between the runway and taxiway. It all worked according to plan right up to the point when it didn't. This grassy area sloped from the runway to the center and the taxiway to the center. As I rolled into the low spot with one wheel slightly ahead of the other, one wing dropped a bit and the 35kt (now headwind) lifted the higher wing causing the lower wing to gently hit the ground cracking the wing tip. Fortunately for me nothing else with the wing was damaged so some duct tape took care of it till I got back home. Obviously I hadn't ever walked this area so didn't know about the low area in the center (which by the way nearly all these grassy areas have). That was a bad thing.

In full disclosure I will still land a lot of these areas without having walked them (at my own risk of course *wink*) but never if there is any height to the grass. And if I've never landed there before I'll do a low slow pass from both directions looking for evil things.

Be careful but have fun.

Actually, I’m always delighted to hear a controller say “Landing in the infield is at pilots risk”, or words to that effect. It tells me that controller, far from being hung up on every letter of every regulation, he or she is willing to give you a little room.

It takes a good bit more gumption to offer that statement than it does to say he’ll no.

Understand that if you screw that up, you can bet that somebody is going to have a “chat” with that controller.....admonition notwithstanding.

When a controller uses that verbiage, it tells me that controller knows full well that what we do in an airplane is always at the pilots risk.

Sometimes a gentle reminder is worthwhile.

MTV

7acdriver wrote:I'm sorry you'll have to connect the dots for me on your line of thought. I land on gravel bars and strips all over that have no 'published data'... If there's no data to become familiar with I don't think this necessarily prohibits it's use.

Gravel bars are not airports.

Airports publish runway information about their designated landing surfaces (aka "runways) in several places. That's "data". Walking the grass or gravel is another way to acquire information. Like others pointed out, a paid up legal insurance policy might also be a good idea, dependng on where you want to arbitrarily decide to use the grass (or gravel) instead of the designated landing surface. Just don't land on an occupied patch of non-runway. Your assets might soon belong to someone else.

Generally speaking under the aviation laws, any place you can land safely is legal, provided the landowner gives you permission.

Where the landowner is an airport company, they typically have rules.

Our former home airport closes the grass when it gets too soft / wet. This is to protect the grass surface and the aircraft. However, by agreement with the airport's Operations Manager I could still land upon it (big tires, no liability). Overall it worked really well.

I had one or two questions from controllers at the tower whom I hadn't briefed in advance, but eventually everyone got the message. At the end of the day, they said "Ahh, OK, as long as you're sure..." because I am responsible for my actions, not them.

Other thoughts:

If you have an ailing aircraft, you can land wherever you see fit without permission - but you are also accountable for the consequences of your actions.

Check the AFD entry for the airport...not all airports are silent on this topic. Here is the verbiage from the entry for King Salmon, AK.

OFF PAVEMENT OPERATIONS BY ACFT; INCLUDING HELICOPTERS; NOT AUTHORIZED AT THE ACR APRON. NO LANDING; PARKING OR TKOFS PERMITTED FROM DIRT OR GRASS.

The tower will not give any clearance of any sort, discussion of pilot's risk or otherwise.

I have no idea what the history of this is, but I may know a few people that used the closed sections anyway.

At my home airport KMAN I asked one of the guys in the Nampa airport pickup , he said sure. I had experienced wear from the pavement on my bush wheels. So I landed without walking the grass and discovered goatheads the likes of which I've never seen. I spent days picking them out and still ended up with a slow leak In the tailwheel. Now I hesitate to try unless I know the conditions. Pavements safer unless it is a real grass strip.

Thank you for all your responses!

My basic take away is -
1) It's not illegal
2) Liability if anything happens is on the pilot
3) Pissing off the Management, even though one is within their right to land there, is likely not worth it

Troy Hamon wrote:Check the AFD entry for the airport...not all airports are silent on this topic. Here is the verbiage from the entry for King Salmon, AK.
OFF PAVEMENT OPERATIONS BY ACFT; INCLUDING HELICOPTERS; NOT AUTHORIZED AT THE ACR APRON. NO LANDING; PARKING OR TKOFS PERMITTED FROM DIRT OR GRASS.
…...but I may know a few people that used the closed sections anyway.

Ditto Jefferson County Airport 0S9, from Airnav:
TKOF AND LNDG PROHIBITED ON TURF NEXT TO RY.
I also may know a few people that do it anyway.
Apparently operating under the "don't ask, don't tell" rules of engagement.

I'm likely one of the offenders Hotrod180 is referring to. CFI and I mad a few landings in the grass along the strip while I was working on my tailwheel enforcement. Looks smooth as butter but is a pretty bumpy ride. I found it was a lot easier now to just go land at the private grass strip I have permission at rather than risk ruffling any feathers.