When the plane is in the air I am not worried. After landing the plane would be dealt with the same as a car or pickup. Some of the ground I will be flying over is pretty mountainous. The gun would be as part of my survival stuff. If it is in the back of the plane then it may be difficult to retrieve after an unplanned landing. Maybe after I get east of the Rockies I could find a better spot than on my person.

As a police officer in Wisconsin, I guess I never thought about this topic in a general aviation airplane. Makes me scratch my head and a few other places now that I think about it.

I carry a short nosed revolver on-duty as a back-up, I carry the same revolver off-duty as well. It doesn’t have much range but it’s better than a knife and I’m also not out looking for gunfight, I just want to be able to protect myself and family while I am ANYWHERE out in public. And yes it’s always loaded.

Wisconsin has CCW and open carry. As long as the loaded firearm is readily visable on your person, you are good to go. However, if you are in a “vehicle” and the gun is in a holster on your hip and not visible to an officer then it’s considered “concealled” and you need to have a CCW permit. I have come across this with an otherwise law abiding citizen once and approached it as an educational opportunity rather than arrest him. Our former attorney general recommended the loaded gun be on the dash. Most of us think it’s silly to have a gun slidding around on a dash.

So I’d go to the Department of Justice’s website of the states you’re looking at landing in. Usually the DOJ sites have ccw and open carry info.

Valid point on the flavor and intentions of the original posting Zzz thanks for the point out !!!

Any time you're considering carrying (and therefore possibly using) a potentially deadly weapon, whether it's a gun, a knjfe, or a club--
you also need to consider the legal & moral ramifications should you use it. Your personal philosophy plays into that. IMHO

Zzz wrote:Does holding a CHL have any actual bearing on the legality of carrying a loaded long gun?

I'm assuming Tm meant rounds in the weapon but not chambered. I'm not sure I've ever heard of or read about regulations that cover this.

Some do, especially in cases where you don't have a concealed permit valid for wherever you are. With the CCW (or CHL, etc) it's generally assumed that you'd have a round chambered anywhere the gun is legal to possess. Outside of that however there are laws defining some places where a chambered round is illegal. This whole legal aspect of can I/where can I/when can I and how it changes state to state (and even sometimes across municipal boundaries) is what makes it difficult. Because of Home Rule the feds will not interfere in that aspect even if guaranteed reciprocity exists.

As for pepper spray...that's a whole new can of worms for internet argument! The argument being that pepper spray is a major potential risk inside a confined airplane cabin should it malfunction or leak.

This past fall I had a can of bear spray suffer a malfunction after some minor damage, fortunately not in any confined space, and some did leak out. Just the bit on the can was potent, however it still had most of its contents so I decided to let it rip, since there was no way I was getting in a truck with that thing still under pressure. I'll post up a picture of it below so you can imagine what it would be like if that went off in an airplane cabin. I doubt you'd have the faculties to land the aircraft intact.

The only way I would entertain bear spray in an airplane is if the can itself is also sealed within something strong enough to contain this holy terror, should it decide to loose itself. On the other hand it was immediately clear to me why it mostly works on bears...However one guy emptied a can of this stuff on a grizz in MT last fall, and after she collected herself she came back around to finish the job. His gun was strapped to his backpack and that was ripped away which was what led me to my chest rig.

On the occasion I carry a gun in a plane it's mostly for the wilderness survival aspect, but airplane locks aren't going to secure that thing so it always goes with me. This certainly means my CCW's must be valid where I am, otherwise I forego carrying to avoid an unfortunate interaction with law enforcement. As for hotrod's last comment, I won't touch on the moral/philosophical aspect of shooting someone (that's a highly personal decision each of us must make), but from a purely legal standpoint I do recommend signing up for one of those personal defense legal services. I use USCCA at the moment but there are others. Just like insurance on your airplane, having someone who has your back legally in any situation involving a gun is like a warm blanket.

Bear spray in action:

Gun laws are often very complicated, and individual jurisdictions within states can have their own laws which are more restrictive. I know of two cities in CA that do not honor CA CCW's. They get away with citations and weapon confiscations (you never get them back) because the value of the weapons is insufficient for the state supreme court to review a decision.

In CA at least, a weapon is loaded if ammunition is touching the firearm. If you have a empty firearm and a loaded magazine touching each other, it's loaded. If a cartridge is stuck to the handle of a revolver with maple syrup, it's loaded.

What response you will get from law enforcement for a firearm infraction is impossible to say, but it's poor strategy to assume you'll be cut a break. You might, you might not. One of the ironies of our judicial system is that the better a citizen you are, the more any legal punishment hurts. Six months in county jail is a life-altering event if you're a normal guy, but it's just a inconvenience if you're a dirt bag.

It's a REALLY good idea to be within the law when it comes to firearms.

If you use a weapon in self defense which you're not authorized to cary, you'll pay for it. Regardless of how justified the shooting is, it's almost a guarantee that you'll be charged with the appropriate weapon violations. And yes, that's better than being dead, but it's still a life-altering event that a person would do well to avoid. In the area I worked, the retainer for a decent lawyer on a penitentiary offense was $60k. Then of course you'll get sued in civil court...that'll cost another $30k, even if you win, which you are not likely to do if you were carrying a weapon illegally.

I never met anyone who was in a shooting, regardless of how justified, who didn't wish they could go back in time and do something different to make it not happen. The old "better to tried by twelve rather than carried by six" chestnut is a lot less convincing when you're actually being tried by those twelve.

hotrod180 wrote:Any time you're considering carrying (and therefore possibly using) a potentially deadly weapon, whether it's a gun, a knjfe, or a club--
you also need to consider the legal & moral ramifications should you use it. Your personal philosophy plays into that. IMHO

Of course, but since this is one of the few satellite topic forums allowed here, I suggest doing as I ask.

All too often we load these threads up with opinion, which addresses the philosophical aspect of personal defense. Everybody has an opinion, and it rarely answers the OP's question, which is in regard to legality. Then the real info that answers the OP gets lost among the rants about substituting bear spray. Like right now-- I'm having to type this in response to solidify my original request and it's just more noise.

I think we need filters, but I'd prob be the first to get filtered out.

On the other hand, a forum is for discussion. Perhaps curating the valuable info into a reference is a good idea.

My only interest in having a gun in the plane is as a survival tool. An unloaded gun is still a tool but a very poor hammer. My intent is not to walk into a bar in downtown Boston and yell that I am from LA and the Celtics suck.

I have a California and Oregon Carry permit. With reciprocity that covers all the western states that I will be traveling over and landing in. It does not cover Colorado. East of the Rockies I see no need to pack heat so I will not.

It would be nice if you have knowledge about the state that you live in when it comes to storage and transportation of a firearm in a vehicle. Loaded or not.

I had no intention of having thread drift to a point that Big Z needed to spank anybody. And yes I would use a gun if ever a group of rapscallions wanted to beat the crap out of me and put me in the hospital as happened one time before.

I knew someone who had to crawl all over the place in the cabin in a hurry to lock up their firearm as we were taxiing when he realized the transient parking was adjacent to the secured airliner area at a large mixed airport. He asked a couple of nervous questions before I finally figured out he was carrying. It was awkward, and we had a commuter jet right behind us and could not really slow down to take care of things. This and one other far more potentially serious incident convinced me that it wasn't worth the hassle to allow carry in my plane. Personal opinions aside, the rules seem to be a patchwork that place a person in legal jeopardy too easily unless I took an interest to seriously understand the subject, which I do not.

I also used to know someone who had to make a stop for a sick passenger in a non-reciprocal state and somehow got sideways with the staff at the FBO. He ended up having to choose between mailing his gun back home or meeting the sheriff.

This is an old article, probably out of date, and might not even be of passing interest. But-

http://pilotgetaways.com/mag/nd13/CCW

Good luck.

lesuther wrote:...
This is an old article, probably out of date, and might not even be of passing interest. But-

http://pilotgetaways.com/mag/nd13/CCW

Good luck.

Old or not, I thought that article was pretty interesting and informative. Thanks for posting it. More real information right there than in every post to date, especially mine...

At the risk of being (more of) an asshat than usual, and incurring the silent (or public) wrath of Big-Z, I have to question qmdv's logic in his trip planning and the basis for this thread. What's the possible use for a gun while flying over mountainous terrain???

I cary a gun every day, regardless of what I'm doing, but in the event of an aircraft crash in the mountains, the only use for a firearm I can possibly think of is to blow my brains out if I'm so burned or broken that it isn't worth fighting on...and I cary a large-dose fentanyl patch for that exigency...no sense dying in pain and fear if you can help it.

If the only reason to bring firearms on a cross country flight is for the possibility of a forced landing in the mountains, this is a no-brainer: Weigh the firearms you want to bring, then go buy an equal weight of chocolate. Put the chocolate in the airplane and throw the firearms back in the gun safe. Now both you and the guns have a much better chance of survival.

Seriously...what possible use is a firearm in the mountains? What the hell are you going to do with a pistol or long gun from the crumpled wreak of your aircraft while your ELT and PLB are pinging out your SOS and location?

Now carrying a firearm EAST of the rockies makes perfect sense to me. If I ever have to make a forced landing in an area marked yellow on the aeronautical chart, I'll damn well want a gun on me. Maybe two. But in the mountains...ridiculous...last thing you'll ever need.

Not an answer to the OP but, like Zzz, I can't resist commenting that a gun with a loaded magazine and a gun with one in the chamber are both considered 'loaded' but the one with a bullet in the pipe is a lot closer to making a loud noise than the other.

In Canada (in case the originally mentioned flight involves crossing the border) you cannot carry a gun in a vehicle if the loaded magazine is in the firearm. One in the pipe is equally illegal.

I'm very happy to say I'm much more likely to see a grizzly bear than a meth-head where I fly or drive. When I leave the vehicle I push a few rounds into the magazine but rarely chamber a round. I'm clumsy and I don't trust safeties.

Check reciprocity laws at www.handgunlaw.us

It’s rare that I don’t carry. Cars, boats, airplanes, home, etc.

Much like flying. Take a serious training course and do annual recurrent training.

A trip, or stop, at Auburn (S50), would answer the question why you carry in an aircraft. Especially if you're partaking in through-the-fence activities. Going there can be like landing at a FOB in the Middle East; don't go outside the wire on foot. CCW just adds another information requirement to the preflight checklist regarding the destination airport.

Word.
+1 Auburn.

NimpoCub wrote:Why would you wanna carry it loaded??

Don't ask the obvious sensible questions...

An unloaded gun is only useful as a hammer....
in fact, it comes in second place to a hammer.

hotrod180 wrote:An unloaded gun is only useful as a hammer....
in fact, it comes in second place to a hammer.

Can't imagine needing either of those things while in-flight. Unless hunting coyotes etc. obviously.

You are obviously not considering a flight off the north coast of California, beyond gliding distance when the salmon are running and there are great whites everywhere.

I can swim, but not likely all the way to shore. A passenger once asked me what our emergency plan would be and I told him that’s what my gun was for. He didn’t understand how a gun would help and I explained that it was to shoot him in the leg so I could swim better than he could. He didn’t see the humor.

Mountain Doctor wrote:As for pepper spray...that's a whole new can of worms for internet argument! The argument being that pepper spray is a major potential risk inside a confined airplane cabin should it malfunction or leak.

Valid point. I would think that at VFR GA altitudes would not make a difference, but I see your point. Depending on what one can research regarding aerosol cans at altitude, a loaded gun may be safer.

With that said, pepper spray is NOT as effective as a firearm, but a heck of a lot easier to defend in court.

As for sterilizing the attacker and cutting off their gene pool, I also agree that is philosophical and remains an option, but maybe not for discussion in this thread.

You don’t need to be at altitude for a can of pepper spray to release its contents. We were required to be “exposed” to the stuff before we were authorized to carry it in LE work. Trust me, you would not want to try to fly with ANY of that stuff in your eyes or nasal passages.

Do NOT carry that stuff uncontained in an aircraft....ever. A Pelican case or ?? Or strap it to a gear leg or strut.

MTV

Pelican cases vent under pressure, so they won't contain pepper spray. A Watershed dry bag will probably contain it, providing there's enough empty volume in the bag. A large canning jar or welding rod case should also work. I just tie my bear spray to the steps with a couple Titan Straps. A bit of silicone tape on the steps makes the can "stick" to it better.

This is a very interesting and intelligent article on the pro's and con's of pepper spray in regards to bears:
https://craigmedred.news/2017/06/29/bea ... yes-or-no/

One of the more interesting parts in the article to me was how bad we are at appraising risk. The chance of a bear attack, even in heavy bear country, is so fantastically small that to worry about it at all is basically wasted energy that should be spent addressing more realistic dangers. But we're evolutionarily hard wired to be inordinately afraid of teeth and claws, so we cary a four-pound handgun strapped to us while getting in and out of a float plane...vastly increasing the very substantial risk of drowning to mitigate the exceptionally small risk of animal attack.

Historically I've needed wasp spray a hundred times more than I've needed bear spray or a gun, but I don't cary it. Not sure why...