Backcountry Pilot • Legality of loaded gun in plane

Legality of loaded gun in plane

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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Battson wrote:
hotrod180 wrote:An unloaded gun is only useful as a hammer....
in fact, it comes in second place to a hammer.

Can't imagine needing either of those things while in-flight. Unless hunting coyotes etc. obviously.


It's not the in-flight need, it's the possibility of an after-you-land need.
Maybe you don't have armed-and-dangerous dirtbags in NZ, but we have them in a lot of parts of the US.
See below posts re Auburn WA S50, ditto for some other big city airports too.
Did you know there is a very busy GA airport in Compton California-- as in, Straight Outa Comptom fame?
Even if you're not in the big city....
whattaya gonna do if some beefy drunk or maniac demands an airplane ride to (wherever)?
Seen that happen, luckily we were able to distract him and avoid any violence.
A firearm is like a pocketknife, or an insurance policy--
seldom needed, but very handy and comforting at times.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Operating in the border regions it is possible to run across a mule/coyote at a remote airstrip. Things could get dicey quick.

A man told me once it was my "responsibility" to protect my family, not my right!
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Legal in most states. I did my cross country and did not lank in New York. Was legal in Illinois but not sure in New Jersey. Probably not.

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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

You have to weigh the possibility and consequences of getting caught doing something illegal,
vs the need / responsibility for self-defense.

How about a forced landing in Appalachia?
Anybody else remember the movie "Deliverance"?

Soweeee! :shock:
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

hotrod180 wrote:Anybody else remember the movie "Deliverance"?


I do remember it! You are aware it wasn't a documentary, right? lol!
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Zzz wrote:Please stick to the actual legality aspect, and please remain clear of the philosophical discussion. I'm sure we all have our opinions on that but it clouds the real information for making a decision.

Does holding a CHL have any actual bearing on the legality of carrying a loaded long gun?

I think there's also a valid distinction between "loaded" and "round chambered." As a rule, I only have a round chambered if the weapon is on my body, otherwise the pipe is empty, despite possibly having a full magazine installed. For long guns there's never a round chambered until I'm ready to shoot. I'm assuming Tm meant rounds in the weapon but not chambered. I'm not sure I've ever heard of or read about regulations that cover this.

As for pepper spray...that's a whole new can of worms for internet argument! The argument being that pepper spray is a major potential risk inside a confined airplane cabin should it malfunction or leak.


Not sure the law would distinguish between "loaded" and "round chambered." Trying to remember what the law is regarding cars in Washington. I think it's similar to the post about South Carolina. Secure and unloaded in glove box or trunk is fine. You might be able to argue, in most cases, that the laws don't specify "in an airplane" but that would be risky and costly if challenged.

I have bear spray that I rarely carry with me as I don't often travel in country where I'm concerned about bears. Been thinking more about it with the increase in cougar sightings more recently and the dude that was attacked and killed near north bend not that long ago. But it was a posting in the local woods about wild boors that got my attention and thinking I should either always carry the bear spray or start carrying something more lethal. Don't know if bear spray would be affective against an angry boor or not.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Hammer wrote:Pelican cases vent under pressure, so they won't contain pepper spray. A Watershed dry bag will probably contain it, providing there's enough empty volume in the bag. A large canning jar or welding rod case should also work. I just tie my bear spray to the steps with a couple Titan Straps. A bit of silicone tape on the steps makes the can "stick" to it better.

This is a very interesting and intelligent article on the pro's and con's of pepper spray in regards to bears:
https://craigmedred.news/2017/06/29/bea ... yes-or-no/

One of the more interesting parts in the article to me was how bad we are at appraising risk. The chance of a bear attack, even in heavy bear country, is so fantastically small that to worry about it at all is basically wasted energy that should be spent addressing more realistic dangers. But we're evolutionarily hard wired to be inordinately afraid of teeth and claws, so we cary a four-pound handgun strapped to us while getting in and out of a float plane...vastly increasing the very substantial risk of drowning to mitigate the exceptionally small risk of animal attack.

Historically I've needed wasp spray a hundred times more than I've needed bear spray or a gun, but I don't cary it. Not sure why...


The Pelican cases I’m familiar with have a vent that can be closed prior to flight, then opened upon arrival. They work fine for containment. We also used them for aerial transport of some very wicked capture drugs that you would not want to be exposed to......insurance in the event of an accident.

In addition to the closeable vent, the Pelican cases come filled with foam. Make a cutout in the foam for the can of spray and the foam itself should prevent any leakage.

As to carrying bear spray, it’s like a lot of things......you’ll never need it till you need it.

Recently, a research assistant on a bear project was mauled by a brown Bear in NW Montana. Apparently, she was able to deploy her can of spray during the attack, which ended the attack.

I’ve worked on bears and spent a lot of time in bear country. I prefer a firearm to pepper spray, but spray is better than nothing, and easy enough to carry.

MTV
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

mtv wrote:
Hammer wrote:Pelican cases vent under pressure, so they won't contain pepper spray. A Watershed dry bag will probably contain it, providing there's enough empty volume in the bag. A large canning jar or welding rod case should also work. I just tie my bear spray to the steps with a couple Titan Straps. A bit of silicone tape on the steps makes the can "stick" to it better.

This is a very interesting and intelligent article on the pro's and con's of pepper spray in regards to bears:
https://craigmedred.news/2017/06/29/bea ... yes-or-no/

One of the more interesting parts in the article to me was how bad we are at appraising risk. The chance of a bear attack, even in heavy bear country, is so fantastically small that to worry about it at all is basically wasted energy that should be spent addressing more realistic dangers. But we're evolutionarily hard wired to be inordinately afraid of teeth and claws, so we cary a four-pound handgun strapped to us while getting in and out of a float plane...vastly increasing the very substantial risk of drowning to mitigate the exceptionally small risk of animal attack.

Historically I've needed wasp spray a hundred times more than I've needed bear spray or a gun, but I don't cary it. Not sure why...


The Pelican cases I’m familiar with have a vent that can be closed prior to flight, then opened upon arrival. They work fine for containment. We also used them for aerial transport of some very wicked capture drugs that you would not want to be exposed to......insurance in the event of an accident.

In addition to the closeable vent, the Pelican cases come filled with foam. Make a cutout in the foam for the can of spray and the foam itself should prevent any leakage.

...

MTV


That style of Pelican case (screw vent) hasn't been made for a decade or more. They now come with a self-venting pressure release valve that's not adjustable.

Pelican cases are amazing, but the design of the pelican case has always been to keep dirt and moisture out, not to hold pressure in. Even with the old-style screw valve to which you refer, the case will burp pressure through the lid O-ring at fairly low psi. That's why you don't see Pelican cases looking like pregnant pillows. They'll suck down and hold a fantastic amount of negative pressure, but they don't puff up. The valve was only there to keep the case from vacuum locking. There's a reason that compressed air canisters are round, not square.

A Pelican case will probably contain a small leak, but if the OC canister bursts, a Pelican case is not the right receptacle to contain it. As for the cut-out foam containing the OC...I wouldn't bet on it. It's open cell and air travels thought in with little impediment.

All that said, I have cans of bear spray that are twenty years old. I don't cary them...they're sitting in the nursery. But it's not like they routinely self destruct with slight changes in temperature or pressure.

For those exposed to OC...while it's fantastically painful, it's important to remember that virtually no physical damage is being done. It feels like white-hot gravel is getting ground into your eyes and Draino is going down your throat and you can't breath, but if you force yourself to open your eyes, you CAN see, and if you force yourself to breath then you WILL get oxygen. I wouldn't want to try to land with a face full of the stuff, but it's not nerve gas. If you can get past the pain and concentrate, you can actually function fairly well.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

mtv wrote:....... I prefer a firearm to pepper spray, but spray is better than nothing, and easy enough to carry.


Reminds me of the old joke...
Q: how can you tell you're in grizzly country?
A: the bear scat has little bells in it and smells like pepper.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Hammer wrote:
mtv wrote:
Hammer wrote:Pelican cases vent under pressure, so they won't contain pepper spray. A Watershed dry bag will probably contain it, providing there's enough empty volume in the bag. A large canning jar or welding rod case should also work. I just tie my bear spray to the steps with a couple Titan Straps. A bit of silicone tape on the steps makes the can "stick" to it better.

This is a very interesting and intelligent article on the pro's and con's of pepper spray in regards to bears:
https://craigmedred.news/2017/06/29/bea ... yes-or-no/

One of the more interesting parts in the article to me was how bad we are at appraising risk. The chance of a bear attack, even in heavy bear country, is so fantastically small that to worry about it at all is basically wasted energy that should be spent addressing more realistic dangers. But we're evolutionarily hard wired to be inordinately afraid of teeth and claws, so we cary a four-pound handgun strapped to us while getting in and out of a float plane...vastly increasing the very substantial risk of drowning to mitigate the exceptionally small risk of animal attack.

Historically I've needed wasp spray a hundred times more than I've needed bear spray or a gun, but I don't cary it. Not sure why...


The Pelican cases I’m familiar with have a vent that can be closed prior to flight, then opened upon arrival. They work fine for containment. We also used them for aerial transport of some very wicked capture drugs that you would not want to be exposed to......insurance in the event of an accident.

In addition to the closeable vent, the Pelican cases come filled with foam. Make a cutout in the foam for the can of spray and the foam itself should prevent any leakage.

...

MTV


That style of Pelican case (screw vent) hasn't been made for a decade or more. They now come with a self-venting pressure release valve that's not adjustable.

Pelican cases are amazing, but the design of the pelican case has always been to keep dirt and moisture out, not to hold pressure in. Even with the old-style screw valve to which you refer, the case will burp pressure through the lid O-ring at fairly low psi. That's why you don't see Pelican cases looking like pregnant pillows. They'll suck down and hold a fantastic amount of negative pressure, but they don't puff up. The valve was only there to keep the case from vacuum locking. There's a reason that compressed air canisters are round, not square.

A Pelican case will probably contain a small leak, but if the OC canister bursts, a Pelican case is not the right receptacle to contain it. As for the cut-out foam containing the OC...I wouldn't bet on it. It's open cell and air travels thought in with little impediment.

All that said, I have cans of bear spray that are twenty years old. I don't cary them...they're sitting in the nursery. But it's not like they routinely self destruct with slight changes in temperature or pressure.

For those exposed to OC...while it's fantastically painful, it's important to remember that virtually no physical damage is being done. It feels like white-hot gravel is getting ground into your eyes and Draino is going down your throat and you can't breath, but if you force yourself to open your eyes, you CAN see, and if you force yourself to breath then you WILL get oxygen. I wouldn't want to try to land with a face full of the stuff, but it's not nerve gas. If you can get past the pain and concentrate, you can actually function fairly well.


I know of at least one case where a can of pepper spray was discharged inside a duffle bag, in the trunk of a car. It was contained by the contents of the duffle. No sign of trouble till the duffle was opened.

MTV
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Zzz wrote:Please stick to the actual legality aspect, and please remain clear of the philosophical discussion. I'm sure we all have our opinions on that but it clouds the real information for making a decision.

(Snip)

As for pepper spray...that's a whole new can of worms for internet argument! The argument being that pepper spray is a major potential risk inside a confined airplane cabin should it malfunction or leak.


Them's words of wisdom!

FWIW, last March I listened to a Dep Sheriff describe how quickly a squadCAR in his unit was evacuated by two officers when a can of Mace (or whatever they use) accidentally discharged while they were rolling down the road. I don't think ANY landing would turn out well if something like that occured in flight. And LOC-I would be really likely.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Considering the nature of this forum Id think the point of a weapon ,ANY weapon in a back country plane would be survival.
Its not that you need a weapon while flying so much as after the arrive in one piece or 100s what a disappointment it would be to find your unloaded weapon and not the box of ammo for it.
As for the OPs trip its a bit different lots of pros and cons but let me ask one question,
In your entire life , even hunting how many times have you honestly needed a weapon and didn't have enough time to load it?
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Easy Hammer, easy don't bite too hard
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Mapleflt wrote:Easy Hammer, easy don't bite too hard


I can only guess...I don't see those posts anymore. There's just so much insightful wisdom I can absorb in one sitting, and I was getting overloaded. :wink:
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

I feel blessed that I don't fly anywhere I need to arrive with a loaded gun. I'll leave that to the brave souls that enlist.

My only pairing of essential self defence and flying is when my wife sees the bill for a service.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Hammer wrote:
Mapleflt wrote:Easy Hammer, easy don't bite too hard


I can only guess...I don't see those posts anymore. There's just so much insightful wisdom I can absorb in one sitting, and I was getting overloaded. :wink:


Dogpilot can go to bat, he's got your 6 covered :wink:
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

NEVER PUT A CAN OF BEAR SPRAY IN THE COCKPIT!
Killed a whole plane full out of Skagway years ago!
When I had our 135 it went inside of a canister made out of schedule 80 pvc.
Cap on one end, screw on cap on the other, then duct taped to the landing gear.
Had no problem if you were packing!, I was.
Same with hornet or wasp spray!
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

I worked 13 summers in AK and others remote places in the lower 48 as a hunting and fishing guide in areas full of brown bears and strange people. We had a very strict NO LOAD policy in and around the aircraft. I know of two cases of fire arms discarging in flight... The first was a 850 that was placed loaded in the float of a beaver and some how went off during take off or landing and blew a large hole out the side of the float compartment. The second was a state trooper who I became close friends with had a parther who shot himself in the leg when his side arm was readjusted durning flight. He landed in Iliamna and almost bleed to death from the self inflicted gun shot wound. I personally was in a loaded beaver when a pepper spray canister went off in the luggage area and we had to set down in a remote pond and had to wait several hours for its effects to wear off. I would say why take the risk? Most of the airstrips since 911 are very secure places its once we leave these areas that I would be concerned for your safety.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

albravo wrote:I feel blessed that I don't fly anywhere I need to arrive with a loaded gun. I'll leave that to the brave souls that enlist.


Have you really given that much thought? The “brave souls that enlist” are probably 15 minutes out?
I pay to “carry” and don’t have it on me as much as I should. God help my family the day I should have been prepared and have to call on the enlisted.
Your local paper is filled with shootings weekly.
I feel blessed that we have the right to protect our families.
If you want to come out and do some target practicing let me know.
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Re: Legality of loaded gun in plane

Terry wrote:
albravo wrote:I feel blessed that I don't fly anywhere I need to arrive with a loaded gun. I'll leave that to the brave souls that enlist.


Have you really given that much thought? The “brave souls that enlist” are probably 15 minutes out?
I pay to “carry” and don’t have it on me as much as I should. God help my family the day I should have been prepared and have to call on the enlisted.
Your local paper is filled with shootings weekly.
I feel blessed that we have the right to protect our families.
If you want to come out and do some target practicing let me know.
Terry


Unless you're flying over Baltimore or Chicago, I don't think this is the reason most folks carry guns with them in airplanes.
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