2013 was the year of restoration and mods for my newly acquired (at that time) 185.
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/my-185-project-in-texas-11730

But apparently I can't leave well enough alone because I've decided to make some additional modifications in early 2015 leading up to our trip to Alaska. Yes, I said "our". The wife has decided to fly in the 185 again even after the less then enjoyable trip to Truckee earlier this year.
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/today-really-sucked-15437
You guys gave some great advice that helped salvage the trip, and as they say "time heals all wounds", or so it appears.

The inspiration for this round of mods belongs to whee and mtv. Thanks guys!
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/bare-bones-ifr-panel-check-that-glass-w-waas-gps-16405?start=60#p224523

GTN-650
As usual it started out innocently enough. Thanks to whee's and mtv's comments in the above thread, and my weak mindedness, I found myself at eBay buying a GTN-650. It will be replacing my Apollo GX55, both MX170B Nav/Coms, the King VOR indicator, and the audio panel (which is nothing but a row of toggle switches). I'm either keeping the existing King Glide Slope (which I think will require adding an annunciator) or upgrading to a glide slope that has a GPS/VOR flag. I will of course have to replace the existing GPS antenna with the GTN's WAAS GPS antenna. That means running new coax from the antenna mounted above the extended baggage compartment, down under the floor, and up to the avionics stack. Simple enough.

The weather is kinda crappy, and business is slow due to the holiday season, so I find myself with time on my hands to sit around and think about stuff. Airplanes mostly. The 185 in particular. Thoughts of replacing the coax gets me thinking.

Firewall Battery
Since I'm in the extended baggage area anyway, why not pull the 35 pound battery, the associated cables and wires that go to the front, the solenoids and the ground power input - and replace all that a firewall battery. I reduce the overall weight by more then half, I shorten the cable run from the battery to the starter to just a couple of feet which reduces the current loss substantially, and in cold weather when I plug in the Tanis or use catalytic heat to warm the engine, the battery is a recipient of the heat that builds up in the cowling, providing more cranking amps. And since the battery is kept warm from the engine heat in flight it's sure to fully recharge. Win, win, win.

I would not have even considered going to a firewall mounted battery had I not finally learned how to hot start the fuel injected 520 almost as easily as it cold starts, as I doubt the Odessey battery could sustain the extended cranking time it used to take.
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/tcm-io520-hot-start-16125?p=225261#p220503

To help ensure I have no starting problems I will be changing the starter to one with fixed magnets instead of windings. This starter type draws less current and as a bonus, since a more modern product, they weigh less too. I'm looking at two starter manufacturers/types:

Sky-Tech ST3/ST5
http://www.skytecair.com/continental.htm

Hartzell Continental M-Drive
http://www.hartzellenginetech.com/product/continental-m-drive-series/

I'm currently leaning heavily towards the M-Drive.

Then another thing occurred to me.

Extended Baggage Flat/Near Flat Floor
With the battery now on the firewall I can lower the extended baggage floor, providing even greater area in the extended baggage. I'm currently researching my floor options. I'll have to relocate the wing and tail strobe power supplies, and the ELT. But that shouldn't be too much of a problem. And that got me to thinking.

406 ELT
I've held off replacing the 121.5 ELT because; if I installed a 406 I wanted it to have GPS capability (expensive), I always fly with my inReach turned on and tracking, and I carry a PLB. But, since I'm installing the GTN-650 I can use its GPS signal for the 406 (much less expensive). Now is the time to do it since I'm installing antennas and running wire in/to the same areas. Additionally it seems like a good time since Canada or the Bahamas (never been but thinking about it) could require 406's at most any time.

Additional Mods

Strut Cuffs
Actually I've already installed them, but they are off and out for paint. I went with Stene Aviation's.
http://www.steneaviation.com/cwResults.asp?secondary=103
The gaskets that were between the struts and wings were coming apart. I'm hoping the decision to go with Strut Cuffs wasn't a bad one as I can now only tie down through the tie down rings, whereas I used to go through the rings and around the strut. Time will tell.

And...
Since I'll be freeing up space in the avionics stack I plan on panel mounting my iPad mini.

I'll be drilling another hole in the control yoke shaft for the control lock that will give me the option to fly the tail when tied down in high winds.

AND...

In March I'll take the 185 to Stene's Aviation to have a Sportsman STOL kit installed along with A.R.T. Wing Extensions with the Sportsman's leading edge.
http://steneaviation.com/

I briefly considered going with Flint tips for the added fuel, but the 185 has long-range tanks and I ran the numbers and didn't see where the added expense would gain me distance I would need, not even in Alaska. Plus the Flint tips don't have any cuff, so a fence would need to be added between the Sportsman Wings and the Flint tips, and I'd loose the performance I would get with Sportsman cuff wingtips.

Since I bought the 185 I'd given very serious consideration to having RSTOL added. Even visited Sierra Industries, the company which owns the RSTOL STC, and whose owner's son is a friend of mine. But I could never get someone who owned a RSTOL 185 to let me fly it. So I held off.

When I called Willie Stene to talk about the Sportsman STOL and Wing Extensions I was really pleased to learn he has an A185F (same model as mine) on which he first installed the Sportsman STOL and later installed the Wing Extensions. He was able to give me his impressions of how the 185's performance changed with each modification. And he has another A185F that has RSTOL. Told me the RSTOL was great when the 185 is on floats, but doesn't like it when it's on wheels. I was very pleased with the time we talked and with his candor.

So there we go, at least for now. As things progress I'll post some pictures and stories, and any tips I might glean along the way.

Hi. My name is Phil and I'm a pilot.

My goodness, Phil...back slowly away from the smoking wallett...keep your hands in plain sight...

Oh, nevermind...too late. Good luck. Fly it lots.

Stop in King Salmon for a visit if you make it out this far.

Fantastic!

You will love the Sportsman. Willie is right... the way go, AND you have the best installer. (No first hand knowledge here) but the common complaint for RSTOL when on wheels is lack of aileron control in the X-wind, which is why you hear folks say they love em on floats. I am super happy with the Sportsman install on my 180. I might also consider the RMD tips while your at it. The added LEDs will make it daylight when landing in the dark...

New coax is always good. I would upgrade to RG400 rather than the 58 if your going for it. You might also want to think about moving the location of the new WAAS antenna much further forward thus saving signal loss and weight. Garmin (I think) says 22 or 24" away from the VHF antennas, so you can just about make it.

FW battery is a great mod. Lots of weights savings indeed. My only regret is ditching the ground services plug. I sold it on eBay, but should have kept it to install in the forward fuse. I had Bogart make me all new cables. They did a fantastic job and have great customer service.

+1 on the Skytec. Very light and turns her right over. Really like mine so far (but only flown about 50hrs on it)

For my $$$, there is only one real choice for the extended baggage. Go with the carbon fiber (Hitchcock Aviation.) Hands down superior to the Selkirk. Selkirk is super flimsy and sounds like it is cracking at the slightest bit of weight. Also tons of trimming to get right. Airglass is bomber and very well made. Also around 6-7 lbs lighter. (Rob can speak better to this, but I think they are close to the 170 STC also)

For strobes, dump those power packs and go with brighter LEDs. for sure go with AeroLEDS. They are such an amazing company. Customer service has been awesome for me. Some have found some noise in earlier models, but Dean their engineer with send you out filters and caps to get rid of any issues.

I know folks have been bashing the Kannad ELT as of late, but I installed the 121/406 and as far as Im concerned, is fantastic. (time will tell) Also half the weight of it's competitors.

RE: Flint tanks... The 185F can run their "Legacy" tank which fits inboard of the WingX, so you can do it all. 24 additional gal, but as they are fiberglass, adds 34lbs. Nothings free....

RE: iPad in the stack... I know everyone is all geeked out about using them, but for me (testing both,) the 796 has been much better. Especially if you can tie it into the 650, 330, and SL30 or 40. Pretty damn amazing with it all working in concert. Garmin still has their $100 rebate going, and if you have an old Garmin, they will buy it back. My IA just sold his last week for $900. Walked away with the new 796 for only $700. Cant beat that!

The last thing I would add that I have found to be one of the best mods I did was the two cargo nets from Mike Anderson (Mountain Wave http://mountainwaveaviation.com.)


So glad the sickness continues. We'll be watching!

Hi Phil, I'm part of the group that loves to spend other people's money!

Sounds like a great project. The GTN series WAAS GPS is a great unit for instrument flying if you plan to use it for that. Otherwise just using portable technology is the way to go in my opinion.

I have a RSTOL and I like that the extra lift generated by the ailerons is achieved with a lower deck angle than the cuff/extensions combo. Sometimes getting the nose to higher deck angles to take advantage of the extra lift in the skywagon isn't practical. Downside is the obvious decrease in full-deflection aileron travel.

Firewall battery is nice. If you have or go with an MT prop in the future, get the starter that cranks slower.

For your extended baggage, go with LED strobes and eliminate the power pack.

Just my opinion based on lots of years/hrs experience- Are you really sure that a small firewall mounted battery is a smart idea? You might want to rethink that one if you indeed have a fuel injected IO-520/550. Having a dead battery in the bush just plain sucks. You might not think its a big deal down in the lower 48, but up in the northern country where you can be literally hundreds of miles from another human can be a huge ordeal. Beyond that issue is you're installing some avioncs which I assume means flying IFR. How long is that little battery going to last when you're in the soup over the mountains in a non radar enviroment and you have an alternator failure? Sure those battery manufactures quote some fantastic AMP/Hr figures when the're talking about a new fresh charged battery on a warm day. Do a capacity check after a year or two and after the battery has been cycled a bunch of times with a heavy discharge from either a real cold start or a long cranking hot restart. Aircraft charging systems are pretty crude on regulation. If you discharge the battery deeply and then the engine starts, the battery is given a massive high amp surge from the charging system. Little batteries like long slow charge rates. I can see maybe the little firewall battery on a VFR ONLY small low compression motor with a two blade prop that you could hand prop in a pinch. If you think you're going to hand prop a 520/550 with a 3 blade its reality check time or you really like living on the edge. If you still insist on doing the firewall battery mod, you might want to check to see if it will fit with your engine mount. On my 185 with a heavy duty seaplane mount for the 550, it has additional cross tubes running through that area. I know its temping to trick out your toy with all the mods. Ask yourself in the end what do I really gain or loose beyond bragging rights, ego trip and having a lighter wallet?

RockHopper wrote:Just my opinion based on lots of years/hrs experience- Are you really sure that a small firewall mounted battery is a smart idea? You might want to rethink that one if you indeed have a fuel injected IO-520/550. Having a dead battery in the bush just plain sucks. You might not think its a big deal down in the lower 48, but up in the northern country where you can be literally hundreds of miles from another human can be a huge ordeal. Beyond that issue is you're installing some avioncs which I assume means flying IFR. How long is that little battery going to last when you're in the soup over the mountains in a non radar enviroment and you have an alternator failure? Sure those battery manufactures quote some fantastic AMP/Hr figures when the're talking about a new fresh charged battery on a warm day. Do a capacity check after a year or two and after the battery has been cycled a bunch of times with a heavy discharge from either a real cold start or a long cranking hot restart. Aircraft charging systems are pretty crude on regulation. If you discharge the battery deeply and then the engine starts, the battery is given a massive high amp surge from the charging system. Little batteries like long slow charge rates. I can see maybe the little firewall battery on a VFR ONLY small low compression motor with a two blade prop that you could hand prop in a pinch. If you think you're going to hand prop a 520/550 with a 3 blade its reality check time or you really like living on the edge. If you still insist on doing the firewall battery mod, you might want to check to see if it will fit with your engine mount. On my 185 with a heavy duty seaplane mount for the 550, it has additional cross tubes running through that area. I know its temping to trick out your toy with all the mods. Ask yourself in the end what do I really gain or loose beyond bragging rights, ego trip and having a lighter wallet?

Worried about hand propping an IO-520/550? Get one of these: http://jbtoolsales.com/antigravity-batt ... fgod3EwASg

You can use it to keep your IPhone charged when you're not starting your plane.

And, I doubt he's thinking of this as a serious IFR machine either. Just having one Garmin WAAS radio does not an IFR machine make.

You're right regarding the engine mount potential conflict, though. The original engine mounts allowed firewall batteries, but some of the seaplane mounts don't.

As to current draw, it doesn't sound like he's designing a real high current draw setup in any case.

Finally, you don't have to install the Odyssey J-16 battery....there are larger capacity Odyssey batteries available, that might be more appropriate for a 185.

I for one like the firewall mounted batteries in those airplanes, for all the reasons Barnstormer noted, mostly having to do with keeping that battery warm.

But, to each his own.
MTV

Barnstormer,

Take a look at the ELT mounting in my 170 posted here: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/commun ... ?start=100

I liked that location....got it out of the way, well protected and solidly mounted.

MTV

Troy Hamon wrote:Stop in King Salmon for a visit if you make it out this far.

Thanks Troy. We'll make it a point to stop in.

bigrenna wrote:I might also consider the RMD tips while your at it.

Squash wrote:...go with LED strobes and eliminate the power pack.

Good ideas. My tips have a few spider cracks in them, nothing serious, but the lighting is old school as well. And loosing one of the two power plants back there in the extended baggage would be nice.

bigrenna wrote:My only regret is ditching the ground services plug.

Funny you should mention that. The only time I needed mine (I thought) was on the $3,000 screw trip...
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/the-3-000-screw-part-1-2-11508
...and it didn't work because a 9 cent diode had gone bad. I have thought about moving it forward just as you did Greg. Won't be selling mine just yet.

bigrenna wrote:Go with the carbon fiber (Hitchcock Aviation.)

I hope this is an option. Their website only shows the kit for early 180's. I have sent them an email.

bigrenna wrote:I have found to be one of the best mods I did was the two cargo nets from Mike Anderson (Mountain Wave http://mountainwaveaviation.com.)

Agreed. I had him do one for my extended baggage. Looks like I'll be using him again for one that goes to the floor.

RockHopper wrote:Having a dead battery in the bush just plain sucks...

It just plain sucks in Taos as well. (see the $3,000 screw story). My 185 has the 2-blade seaplane prop and even so I stood there long and hard thinking about hand propping her (and didn't).

RockHopper wrote:If you still insist on doing the firewall battery mod, you might want to check to see if it will fit with your engine mount. On my 185 with a heavy duty seaplane mount for the 550, it has additional cross tubes running through that area.

Mine as well. It has the Kesola Heavy Duty Seaplane mount. I gave Burl's Aircraft a call and Burl said he knew exactly what I needed and could fix me up. I'm almost thinking it's a standoff box. I'll post pics when I get it. And RockHopper, thanks for your thoughts.

mtv wrote:I doubt he's thinking of this as a serious IFR machine either...As to current draw, it doesn't sound like he's designing a real high current draw setup in any case....

Right you are Mike.

Truthfully one of the primary motivators for installing the GTN is cause I'm tired of sending both my radios off for repair - again and again. Another would be I'd like to finish my IFR training and the chance goes up exponentially by being able to shoot GPS approaches. I have no interest or intent to fly serious IFR. Not interested in doing that in a single engine plane, and there is no way I'd practice enough to be sharp enough to satisfy my own personal limitations. I do want to be able to get through the hundred foot layers we get that sometimes keep me grounded. A bonus is I get a moving map backup to Foreflight or Garmin Pilot.

And yep, I'm gradually replacing all the ancient high-current electrics in the 185. And I'm researching options for charging/jumping the battery in case it ends up dead. I wouldn't be surprised if the solution comes from somewhere other then aviation.

Anti-gravity battery, hmmm. If I could just get the warp reactor coil back online.

mtv wrote:Take a look at the ELT mounting in my 170 posted here: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/another-170b-interior-project-15088?start=100

I liked that location....got it out of the way, well protected and solidly mounted.

I like what you did, especially the easy access (which mine currently does not have). Believe I'll do something similar. Thanks Mike.

Mike, did you add any cross bracing of any kind to the fiberglass floor?

I was thinking if Selkirk ends up my only/best option I would do that by either glassing something in on the underside, or since I'll put an access door in like yours maybe extending the support around the door. Or maybe both.

Barnstormer, does your plane have the 24-28 volt system?

Steve

Not trying come off as preachy, but just something to consider before you leap... I have a similar ELT mount like MTV posted up. When I had my new 406ELT installed, the avionics shop was very insistant that the installation had to meet some new fairly stringent requirements from the FAA and the sidewall OEM mount area was not an option any longer. My new 406ELT resides now in the belly beneath the extended baggage much like MTV's 170, with quite a bit more robust structure supporting it. This may be a consideration when considering the various extended baggage floor kits as you may find that may be your only option to meet the requirements. Also as many others have voiced, best value vs weight addition -hands down "Sportsman STOL".

steve wrote:Barnstormer, does your plane have the 24-28 volt system?

Nope Steve, 12/14 volt system. I'm lucky there.

Squash wrote:If you have or go with an MT prop in the future, get the starter that cranks slower.

The M-Drive starter is a gear reduction. Not thinking of a MT, but have to admit I am thinking of the Blackmac Carbon. The longest blade length is 79", but, it is lighter then the MT and most importantly I don't have to dial back the engine RPM so I can take full advantage of all the 520's horsepower. Already been talking with McCauley and they feel it's an easy field approval as it is built for the 520 and 550 engine. I'm told the 79" won't be available till late 2015. No decision, just thinking, and curious.

RockHopper wrote:Not trying come off as preachy, but just something to consider before you leap...

Ah heck Rockhopper, I knew you were looking out after my own good.

RockHopper wrote:I have a similar ELT mount like MTV posted up. When I had my new 406ELT installed, the avionics shop was very insistant that the installation had to meet some new fairly stringent requirements from the FAA and the sidewall OEM mount area was not an option any longer. My new 406ELT resides now in the belly beneath the extended baggage much like MTV's 170, with quite a bit more robust structure supporting it. This may be a consideration when considering the various extended baggage floor kits as you may find that may be your only option to meet the requirements.

My 121.5ELT is already under the baggage compartment on a shelf we built, but not as low as MTV's or I guess yours. Appreciate the heads up.

Just out of curiosity, have you looked at the emerging lifesaving technologies ELT? It is more $$ but has the gps built in. I would have put one in my 180 but they are not yet approved in Canada. Also, you may want to check aeropod for their carbon fiber extended baggage. It is approved for all 180/185s I am pretty sure.
You are going to like the mods. Most are on my list as well, but my list won't be accomplished anytime soon.

A thought: installing the 650 requires an avionics shop to do it according to Garmin's methodology, and then functional testing, for it to be IFR certified. That includes the location of the antenna, the connecting coax, etc. From what I was told when I had my 430W installed, there are a lot of pretty picky requirements. Once you have your IR, you sure don't want to have to redo anything to legally fly in the system.

Cary

A1Skinner wrote:Just out of curiosity, have you looked at the emerging lifesaving technologies ELT? It is more $$ but has the gps built in. I would have put one in my 180 but they are not yet approved in Canada. Also, you may want to check aeropod for their carbon fiber extended baggage. It is approved for all 180/185s I am pretty sure.
You are going to like the mods. Most are on my list as well, but my list won't be accomplished anytime soon.

Hank, I'm unable to find Aeropod (related to aviation) on the Interweb. Do you by chance have any contact info?

The GTN 650 can supply GPS info to ELT's that can receive. This is the one I'm looking at buying:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/elt406.php

Barnstormer wrote:
Hank, I'm unable to find Aeropod (related to aviation) on the Interweb. Do you by chance have any contact info?

Aeropod is Tony Lopez (BCP member,) but he makes the belly pod. The carbon fiber extended baggage is Todd Hitchcock and made by Airglas.

http://hitchcockaviation.com/detail.php?item=31&cat=Cargo%20Pods

Thats a great ELT. I have the same one in my 180, but I need to get a cable built to tie it into my 796.

And sorry, I told you the wrong name. Not Aeropod, Airglas. Weighs 5.5 lbs.
http://www.airglas.com/FixedWing/Produc ... fault.aspx
Airglas site shows for early 180s as well as 185s.
David

Cary wrote:A thought: installing the 650 requires an avionics shop to do it according to Garmin's methodology, and then functional testing, for it to be IFR certified. That includes the location of the antenna, the connecting coax, etc. From what I was told when I had my 430W installed, there are a lot of pretty picky requirements. Once you have your IR, you sure don't want to have to redo anything to legally fly in the system

Cary, when I say "I' it really means "we", which includes me, my IA, and anyone else we need. My IA, an outstanding avionics guy, will be doing the install of the 650 and everything else that requires any wiring (like the 406ELT). I'll do the grunt work stuff like the starter, extended baggage, firewall battery mount, and so on. Oh, and I go get lunch for everyone, after all, I'm in management and need a break from all the thinking and overseeing.

Barnstormer wrote:Mike, did you add any cross bracing of any kind to the fiberglass floor?

I was thinking if Selkirk ends up my only/best option I would do that by either glassing something in on the underside, or since I'll put an access door in like yours maybe extending the support around the door. Or maybe both.

No bracing needed. It took a good bit of head scratching to find a place that would both provide a span of the ribs on the aircraft belly to mount a plate for secure mounting of the ELT plus avoid the stiffeners on the Selkirk floor. That's what dictated the location of the ELT.

As BigRenna notes, the Selkirk floor kit does take some cutting and fitting (like every Selkirk product that I've seen), but it's a pretty good piece of equipment. I've not seen one of the Landes floors, but that company builds good stuff, period, so I have no doubt it's a great piece of equipment.

I sure wouldn't shy away from the Selkirk in any case. It's plenty stiff enough for the loads that are approved for that section of the cabin anyway, and it's really not that big a deal to install.

MTV

One of the things to keep in mind if you're considering an Emerging Lifesaving Technologies ELT: That ELT is the only one made that does NOT transmit a 121.5 signal in addition to the 406 signal.

That may or may not be a big deal. The theory is that with the ELT transmitting a set of GPS coordinates from the built in GPS, RCC SHOULD have a precise enough location to send rescuers right to you.

I tend to agree with that, but I think I'd wait a little while till the record clearly shows that the 121.5 signal is no longer of use.

It is not practical to DF (Direction Find) the 406 signal, because it goes out as a momentary burst, and not very frequently. Maybe someone has figured out how to do so lately, but I doubt it's going to be possible.

So, while the ELT alert with coordinates SHOULD be enough, there's always that possibility that it could still require some DF work to find you.....maybe.

Me, for half the price and the ability to connect to pretty much any GPS in the plane, I'll stick with the ACK ELTs.

MTV