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Backcountry Pilot • Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

A general forum for anything related to flying the backcountry. Please check first if your new topic fits better into a more specific forum before posting.
29 postsPage 2 of 21, 2

Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

If your goal is flying tailwheel, a nice Taylorcraft will fit your budget. It may not fit your mission profile, however. But as the others have said, the airplane you already have fits your mission profile pretty well, better than anything in the price range you are thinking of.

If you are talking about lower-48 camping at the known strips, you really do not need to make changes to your plane. Look up Bob Bement. He flies a bone stock 182 out of Vale, Oregon, and he goes all over the Idaho backcountry. Bigger tires, fork, etc. will turn your plane into a more forgiving performer for off-airport operations, but it is amazing what a good airplane handler can do with an airplane they are familiar with.

One of the great things about big tires is it takes some of the clunk out of clunky landings. And it certainly makes rough ground smoother. So I am not advocating against getting big tires...everybody should have big tires...but you may not even need them depending on where specifically you want to be able to go. What you do need is soft-field technique, real world, where you can protect that nose gear. That will be true regardless of what tires you are running.

The limiting factor in most flying is the pilot. Fly more. That is my standard advice. FWIW
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Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

The main thing that takes the clunk out of clunky landings is a power pitch approach such that extra power does not increase airspeed because of the pitch angle. With that kind of variable pitch angle to decelerate, power controls rate of descent all the way down to a very slow (much less than Vso) and very soft landing. To be both shortest and softest, power must be considerable and variable as necessary all the way down.

The traditional soft field landing is not so short. The traditional power off short field landing is not so soft. Managing all energy available including engine, wind, and ground effect increases the capability of the airplane more than most modifications. Short (exactly on the numbers or desired spot) and soft (power controlling descent rate to touchdown) is possible every time with practice.
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Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

Add $15k to your budget - figure it would be what you would spend on first annual, added insurance etc. and convert the 182 to a 182TW.
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Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

You do have BAS shoulder harness in your 182 don't you? If not, put em NOW!


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Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

DBI wrote:We have all done those mental gymnastics in the past. Like others have said you have one of the best platforms to work from already in your hangar. I own a 1959 C-182B that I have modified to fit my mission of a combination backcountry and useable x-country airplane; PPponk, bigger tires and nose fork, Atlee Dodge rear jump seats etc., etc. I pay $550/year for insurance and really have no worries except flying.

This week I flew into the Frank Church Wilderness to do a little late season fishing on the middle fork of the salmon river. The photo below was taken on Tuesday while I was waiting for my coffee pot to finish making me a hot cup!

My suggestions are as follows w/ your $25k budget;

1,) Send me the money and I will tell you, you had a good time.
2.) Make some appropriate mods to your bird and spend the balance on avgas and enjoy.

Thanks -

Image



I thought that was the smoke signal for the helicopter that was coming to fly you out because you landed but didn't have a long enough area to depart :D :D :D :D
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Aircraft: Last few aircraft owned: T41a 180hp 8.5 tires, MTO gyro, RV8, C177 STOL, and now just a Wilga !!

Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

Pierre_R wrote:I'll throw in my sixty-something old man thoughts.

I have a 182-G that is mostly on amphib floats but a few years ago I built up a great wheel gear setup with both 29" ABW's and 8.50's mounted on their own rims so I could swap easily, and both an 8.50 and a 7.00 nose gear to go with them. Cleveland double puck brakes, and Airglas fork. Great setup. I could land anywhere I was willing to, including in front of my house. Even competed a bit at STOL-Drag and beat all the four-place taildraggers. Had a lot of fun. Has the Sportsman STOL, Wing-X extensions, and Micro Aero VGs. Great backcountry rig.

Then I decided to get a folding-wing plane to tow behind my pickup camper. I got a very nice Aerotrek A220 and I've been having a blast with it, just returning from a trip through northern NV, UT, CO, and southern UT. 182 is staying on the amphib floats again this winter, but one of these autumns I'm gonna put it back on the wheels and play with it again.

Previously had a 1959 taildragger 150 (Lowe conversion). So, having run the 182 and a couple of planes in the category you're thinking about, I have the following thoughts.

While I enjoy my little A220 a lot, it's not as robust or capable as that 182. No sub-700 pound plane can be. The small luggage box is limited to 50 lbs and much of it is taken up with flat repair supplies: patches, wrenches, jack, compressor, bicycle type pump.

I've had a flat tire from a small thorn, the type that flats mountain bike tires. That thorn would likely not have penetrated the ABW's or even 8.50's with good tubes. When I tried running the little 12V compressor from the lighter plug, it tripped the breaker before I could get 8 psi in, so I now also carry a bike pump. Just noting that because it seems everything on the smaller planes is a bit lighter duty.

I also put a good-sized rock through the fabric of the horizontal. The 182 has the thick abrasion boots on the leading edge of the horizontal and if the rock missed that, it likely would have just dented the aluminum. I also am more cautious of the little carbon fiber-wrapped LSA composite prop than I would be with the nickel-leading-edge MT on the 182.

The light plane with low wing loading is like a kite compared to the heavier 182. I really watch for forecast winds around the mountains. I can comfortably fly and land that 182 in a fair amount of wind.

From a practical standpoint, as the others have written, and I'm agreeing, the 182 is an excellent BC platform. I own three planes and even being mostly retired, it's a lot of work to look after multiple planes.

Pierre


This has been the most informative post FOR ME in the last 2 weeks ! I've been looking at spending the $100k for a new A220 but as much as I like it the CONS you posted here are exactly the top ones on my list of possible CONS so thank you, that plane is out.
Last edited by EastTexasPilot on Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

After reading about 200 threads on everything related during the last week I'm glad I found this current thread because I'm in the same boat. I used to own a nice T41a (Cessna 172 with 180hp) on 800 main and 600 front with heave duty fork. That was about it and I loved it, the picture below was the one. After 2 years restoring it and adding all of the above I somehow ended up with high blood pressure and was about to lose my medical so long story short I sold it. a year later bought an RV8 and loved it too, 204mph, acrobatics, etc but after 2 years had an accident that agravveted a back condition and now can't climb up onto the wing to get into the cockpit so I just sold it this week.

Back to looking for a high wing and was looking at the A220 but thanks to Pierre R I confirm my doubts about it so that's out. Then I found a nice 1948 Luscombe T8F ( I prefer tandem) with the little C-90 and was thinking about it because I prefer metal over fabric any day. Then I found what I was looking for even if it's twice the price of the Luscombe :

1966 172 taildragger 400 total time engine and 3300 frame
180hp 0-360-a4m like my previous 172
BAE shoulder harness
Alaska 26" with 199-62 wheels and brakes
Sportman STOL
Horton Wing Tips
and that's all because the radios suck and the rest is ok, the paint is ok, the interior is new but I'm removing the rear seat anyway who cares.

Isn't this what I really should be buying instead of the tube and fabric planes?


Here's a picture of my old 172.
3F9-TA37 Last Takeoff 20170923.png
3F9-TA37 Last Takeoff 20170923.png (648.35 KiB) Viewed 1202 times
EastTexasPilot offline
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Aircraft: Last few aircraft owned: T41a 180hp 8.5 tires, MTO gyro, RV8, C177 STOL, and now just a Wilga !!

Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

I finally found my low & slow plane !! More about it here

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/my-p ... -540-26702
EastTexasPilot offline
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Aircraft: Last few aircraft owned: T41a 180hp 8.5 tires, MTO gyro, RV8, C177 STOL, and now just a Wilga !!

Re: Looking for Low and Slow advice and Ideas

Now that everyone has settled on the airplane they want or need, just a low altitude orientation truism about Low and Slow. Hopefully, unless arriving at the desired touchdown spot "all slowed up and ready to squat," Low and Slow is just a catchy phrase. Hopefully, none are actually trying to work low at low power and slow. While altitude and potential energy of altitude is considered the safe thing when we have altitude, what is the safe thing when we do not have lots of altitude? Airspeed, not altitude, is necessary to be able to maneuver safely down low. Airspeed, zoom reserve airspeed, max airspeed, all we can get airspeed is altitude and or maneuvering speed when low. Low and slow, unless ready to land, is unsafely giving up the zoom reserve airspeed necessary for maneuvering around things and even climb if need be. At altitude, the law of the roller coaster is just a nice lazy eight. Working low, zoom reserve airspeed is necessary to initiate (wings level) the airspeed trade for altitude so that when we turn at a very steep but 1 g bank we are trading that altitude potentially for airspeed by releasing the back pressure and letting the airplane fly down hill instead of us causing stall. The design of the airplane is to fly, not stall.

Enjoy the fine airplane. Fly low and fast.
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