No guru but, here's my $00.02 USD about sleeping bags...

Cleanliness and maintenance of a sleeping bag, for me, needs to be quick and easy. Synthetics generally repel moisture/dirt better plus, can be washed in the tub at home and dried faster.

Coin laundry in town which can fit my XL (synthetic) Coleman sleeping bag is $4.50 USD and drying is about $4.00

I know very little about camping on the mainland (North American) just my thoughts on what's working for now.

Note: Coleman bag was purchased in 2009 at the WalMart in Caldwell Idaho for $25.00. It's a great value. My wife uses a Mountain Hardware Ultra Light down sleeping bag which weighs 1.5 LBS, been used only a few times. No complaints, Mountain Hardware is an exceptionally high quality company.

Down is the best for warmth and weight until it gets wet. Synthetic is better for a survival bag.
DENNY

In my 20+ years of guiding and mountain rescue, my hands have never gotten too cold for my bic. I can never find my expensive lighter when I need it, so I make sure there's a bic in every pocket. I buy a new 10 pack every season.

Pinecone wrote:I had hoped this thread would expand on the sleeping bag topic originally posted.

Here's a thought. There's a company called Wiggy's that makes sleeping bags that weigh a godawful ton and compress to roughly the size of a hay bale. But they are solidly built, and would be worth their weight in gold in a true survival situation. They sell a bunch to govt, and used to produce a vacuum-packed, ultra-compressed, plastic-sealed emergency-use version of one of ther bags specifically to fit under aircraft seats that was roughly the size of a board game. No idea if this is still available, but it always seemed like a worthwhile thing to pursue for a devoted aircraft survival bag. The reason I haven't, I'm an unapologetic sleeping bag snob. Or greasy fart sack, as Abbey would have said.

Edit: not only does that vacuum-sealing option still exist, but it appears they even have a shop in Anchorage:
http://www.wiggys.com/sleeping-bags/sle ... packaging/

Durango Skywagon wrote:In my 20+ years of guiding and mountain rescue, my hands have never gotten too cold for my bic. I can never find my expensive lighter when I need it, so I make sure there's a bic in every pocket. I buy a new 10 pack every season.

My personal experience with Bic lighters are they last along time even in storage. There are a few in my survival packs that still have fuel and light perfectly after a few years. However, I buy the Bic (5) pack every couple of years just like common batteries are replaced every two years too (+/- a few months).

Survival Matches (which infuse an oxidizer/fuel much of the entire stem) are hygroscopic and need to be protected from humidity even if they are "Waterproof". Usually a "Wax type compound", which is very thin, is used as a short term insulation from moisture. They need to be stored in an appropriate container if longevity is an issue.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match wrote: ...Storm matches, also known as lifeboat matches or flare matches, are often included in survival kits. They have a strikeable tip similar to a normal match, but the combustible compound – including an oxidiser – continues down the length of the stick, coating half or more of the entire matchstick. The match also has a waterproof coating (which often makes the match more difficult to light), and often storm matches are longer than standard matches. As a result of the combustible coating, storm matches burn strongly even in strong winds, and can even spontaneously re-ignite after being briefly immersed under water. The pyrotechnics compound burns self-sustained.

Bic lighters are rated "Five Star" in my book for backcountry flying in the lower 48 (&50th).

[quotCurious what type of "fire starter" you carry.
I'm one of those guys who can't hardly light a fire with dry wood.
Wet wood in an emergency? Fuggetaboutit.
I've seen little roundish fire starter tablets sold commercially (think Walmart).
"Fatwood" (pitch) works as well as anything but PITA to pack along.

I've read about cotton balls soaked in Vaseline, those work pretty good?
Seems like they'd be pretty easy to pack along.e][/quote]

First Hammer is absolutely right, you need a good tinder base and some basic knowledge/common sense or nothing will work. I carry Trioxane tablets which you can get in a couple of different sizes and the el cheapo sawdust/wax sticks, which work best when you break them and light a fresh edge. Love to hear more an sleeping bags too. My choice is down, but I'm not in a survival situation, so getting it wet really isn't a concern. Even though I'm out in nasty weather a fair amount it's generally a pretty controlled environment. I just need warm & compact.

Pete

Ive been doing a little winter survival class for our SAR team and local aero-medical helicopter crews for about 10 years. We practice with all sorts of fire starting: bow drill, flint and steel, batteries and steel wool, and a lot of commercial fire starting. I think a small jar of vaseline and something cotton like to saturate it with is the best. Cotton balls work great and they burn for 5+ minutes which will get most fires started. My ideal is that everything in my emergency kit has multiple purposes. So I have some sterile gauze for dealing with wounds, and a bit of vaseline, which is also good for chapped skin, coating a bandage next to a wound etc. AND these two together also make a great emergency fire starter.

One thing I have seen is lots of people carry flint and steel, but don't know how to work them, you gotta practice. In our training I find I can start a fire faster with a bow and drill than most can with a flint and steel . A great flint/steel product though is called a blast match: http://www.ustbrands.com/product/blastm ... ter-black/ . Its what I carry as a backup for my bic lighter. Its almost full proof, and creates a robust spark and a magnesium sliver simultaneously.

Brad

I've been using two bags for quite a while, a super light/small one and a medium weight/size one, and I take them both most of the time. I was in Smiley Creek near the 4 th. of July, and we had frost on the wings! That way I can mix and match, worse case putting the light one inside the other one and zipping both up. All the way to not using the bigger one at all other then something to lean against in the tent. This gives me lots of options, getting cold isn't one of them.

So I figured I should share the hands too cold to light a Bic lighter story at this point. For a aviation analogy it was like a VFR pilot flying into IMC due to poor planning. I wasn't even guiding just a day off. Fshaw and I hiked in to a brook trout pond in late April or Early may (Can't remember) and since it was a day off for both of us and we are of course trained professionals we didn't check an updated forecast. The hike in was only a few miles but as we headed in it started to snow. Got to the pond and hopped in our respective boats (Great boats by the way. Mine is a 10' carbon/Kevlar mix that weighs 13lbs. Check out Hornbeck boats or the Adirondack canoe Company) and started fishing. It kept snowing and we were way under dressed. We are both stubborn dumb asses and neither of us wanted to call uncle.I finally gave up and told Frank I was going to start a fire so at least one of us could tell our wives what happened. By this time there was several inches of wet snow on the ground. My hands were numb and I was shivering so hard I could not get the flint roller on the Bic to make a spark. I tried for several minutes. Finally got some matches out and could hold on to them hard enough to get one lit. Started a fire and all was well. I really don't think I could have got the Bic lighter to work. Now, really it was no big deal we would have just hiked out and been fine once we got moving, but since that day I carry the push button lighter in addition to the Bic and matches. Just another bit of insurance...

Pete

denalipilot wrote:

Pinecone wrote:I had hoped this thread would expand on the sleeping bag topic originally posted.

Here's a thought. There's a company called Wiggy's that makes sleeping bags that weigh a godawful ton and compress to roughly the size of a hay bale. But they are solidly built, and would be worth their weight in gold in a true survival situation. They sell a bunch to govt, and used to produce a vacuum-packed, ultra-compressed, plastic-sealed emergency-use version of one of ther bags specifically to fit under aircraft seats that was roughly the size of a board game. No idea if this is still available, but it always seemed like a worthwhile thing to pursue for a devoted aircraft survival bag. The reason I haven't, I'm an unapologetic sleeping bag snob. Or greasy fart sack, as Abbey would have said.

Edit: not only does that vacuum-sealing option still exist, but it appears they even have a shop in Anchorage:
http://www.wiggys.com/sleeping-bags/sle ... packaging/

I was about to say pretty much the exact same thing about Wiggy's, though far less eloquently. My fire crew, when I worked in Denali coincidentally, carried these bags and I spent 40+ nights a year in mine. I have a Wiggy's now whose sole purpose in life is to sit in the back of my plane and hopefully never be used.

Pinecone wrote:I had hoped this thread would expand on the sleeping bag topic originally posted. I'm in the market for a new sleeping bag. Needs to be good down to about the freezing point or a little below. Can't be a mummy. Don't care about bulk. Just want to know which manufacturers offer the best product.

I look for value, not price. Not always the most expensive, just bang for the buck.

What materials these days? Is down still a good idea, or has it been surpassed by synthetics? I like lots to pull up over my head and shoulders, so I look for a long size.

Woods brand is popular around here.

I average over 100 days a year in a sleeping bag, and I can tell you without hesitation that You Get What You Pay For!

Down provides more insulation than synthetic for less weight and bulk, but it's more expensive.

Right now I'm only aware of one truly excellent manufacture of sleeping bags, and that's Feathered Friends out of Seattle. All their bags and garments are hand made, in the USA, from traceable, certified down. The rest of the mountaineering brands (North Face, Marmot, Sierra Designs, etc.) are not what they were twenty years ago...not even close. All made in China from mostly undocumented down filling. They still might be plenty of bag, depending on how many nights a year you use them, but they won't survive a decade of hard use like they once would.

Synthetic bags are fine if the bulk and weight aren't an issue, which for an airplane it probably isn't. Down doesn't insulate when wet, but in 34 years of using down bags, I've never gotten one so wet as to be ineffective. A huge portion of that time was spent doing whitewater expedition kayaking, so moisture was a common theme. If you're sleeping out without cover and it rains all night, a synthetic bag will be a godsend. Otherwise, down is superior in all regards...except cost.

If you don't want to pony up the money for a FF bag, I'd search the discount outlets (Sierra Trading Post, Campmore, or the clearance sections of other large online outfitters) and see what you can get on sale. 50% discount off retail is very realistic if you shop hard. And as far as I can tell, all the non-FF brands are about the same.

FWIW, the "rating" of a sleeping bag is a VERY rough guideline. A twenty-degree bag from any given manufacture should be pretty close in how much insulation it provides, but that doesn't mean you'll be happy at twenty degrees in the bag. There are so many variables to how warm or cold people sleep that it's simply impossible to accurately rate any bag for any person.

And no matter how good the bag, you'll sleep cold if you don't have enough insulation in your sleeping pad. MOST of your heat is lost to the ground, not to the air. A 12" air mattress might be super comfortable, but it provides very little insulation. The insulation on the bottom of the bag is of minimal value, since your body weight compresses it. An insulate sleeping pad is essential. Closed cell foam for $50, or a high-tec inflatable, insulated pad for $250...it's just a question of how much you'll use it and how much you value your sleep.

A couple stories about sleeping bags.

I have an REI synthetic which I use in OSH and other damp places that really doesn't need to be all that warm. As cold as OSH ever gets in the summer (it dropped to 58F one night this year), I've been comfortable. I bought it for my Ultimate Small Boat Adventure, which for only $15.95 at Amazon and Barnes & Noble, you can read the details (24 days and nights on a 19' Sea Ray through the San Juan Islands of WA and BC and the Gulf Islands of BC, about a 1000 mile trek with my Golden Retriever). It's gotten a lot of use and is still in pretty good shape.

My other is a down Marmot that I bought at REI's "garage sale" some 25 or so years ago, which someone had returned because of a little tiny pull in the nylon cover--not something anyone could see if it wasn't marked with a big Marks-a-lot X. It has kept me warm down to mid-20s by itself, and with a liner, colder than that. Great sleeping bag, and still in excellent condition.

On one of the fly-ins to Marble, CO, 5 or 6 years ago, the fellow next to me had a nice later model 180. He'd flown up from Texas, but he used to live in Vail, so he knew that it could get cold at Marble in September. He was bragging about his new sleeping bag that he'd paid some gawd-awful price for ($600 sticks in my mind) that was sure to keep him warm. I had my Marmot bag, and I cheated--I also had my Portable Buddy propane tent heater. I ran it before turning in, but I shut it off so it didn't run all night. I was warm all night in my Marmot, but I wasn't anxious to get out of the bag in the morning. So without getting out of my sleeping bag, I reached over and lit it about 5 a.m., and by the time I got up around 6, the tent was comfortably warm. I got dressed, went outside, and started up my propane coffee maker.

Pretty soon, my neighbor was up, and I asked him how his sleeping bag worked. "I about froze to death!" I told him that he was welcome to go into my tent and thaw out, but he declined--but he did have a hot cup of coffee once it was ready!

If I were to buy a new sleeping bag, I've given some consideration to the water-proof Downtek bags that several of the better manufacturers have come out with. They're really pricey, but supposedly they mix the warmth of ordinary down with the water resistance of synthetic fillers.

Cary

Down filled sleeping bags definitely need a sleeping pad. My synthetic sleeping bag has a little more resistant to the separation of fibers and with a little ground reconnaissance has been used without a pad. For example: SE Alaska has the softest moss to sleep on. When I received my wilderness camping briefing at Glacier Bay National Park (mandatory for a 14 day permit) this last July, the Ranger commented on the softness of the moss and its insulation qualities for sleeping. I slept in a tent, there was a pesky neighbor who loved to hang with us:


However, I will add, a sleep pad is probably more significant than the bag, in cold weather (natural down filament especially).

In Micronesia, Guam, Samoan, Marshall Is. etc..staying cool is a struggle generally when camping. I would sleep on top of a synthetic sleep bag not in it. Although, if a cyclone passes near by and the Island(s) are exposed to the northwest quadrant we see cooler temps (and possibly destructive winds and tides). In which case evacuation is probably best and f<edit> ing forget the sleeping bag.

I sometimes use a trash compactor bag to store the sleep bags. A poor man's vacuum pack.

Durango Skywagon wrote:....I think a small jar of vaseline and something cotton like to saturate it with is the best. Cotton balls work great and they burn for 5+ minutes which will get most fires started. My ideal is that everything in my emergency kit has multiple purposes. So I have some sterile gauze for dealing with wounds, and a bit of vaseline, which is also good for chapped skin, coating a bandage next to a wound etc. AND these two together also make a great emergency fire starter. ....

Thanks for answering my question instead of chewing me out for not being good at starting fires, or referring me to study material.

hotrod180 wrote:

Durango Skywagon wrote:....I think a small jar of vaseline and something cotton like to saturate it with is the best. Cotton balls work great and they burn for 5+ minutes which will get most fires started. My ideal is that everything in my emergency kit has multiple purposes. So I have some sterile gauze for dealing with wounds, and a bit of vaseline, which is also good for chapped skin, coating a bandage next to a wound etc. AND these two together also make a great emergency fire starter. ....

Thanks for answering my question instead of chewing me out for not being good at starting fires, or referring me to study material.

Little sensitive Hotrod, don't you think? If anyone chewed you out, I didn't see it. And if your goal is to actually start fires, "study material" is a lot move valuable than another fire starter that won't work for you. If someone lamented that they couldn't sharpen a chainsaw to save their life and thought maybe a different brand of saw file would fix that, would you say "sure...great file", or point them towards a tutorial on the technique of sharpening?

The original idea of the TCP/IP DDN (internet) and the "HTTP(S)" protocol (World Wide Web) was to link information to the original source. That way people don't keep repeating themselves. I REPEAT people that forward links of information don't have to repeat themselves. I keep saying that people.

Hammer is correct by forwarding links. Either as a bibliography or as research materials. Keep up the good work Hammer.

Disclaimer: "Gopher" Preceded/co-developed a text based server/client protocol (remember the Weiss 50 on an RS-232 at 300Baud) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol)

This is a discussion site, right?
The next time you're having a face-to-face discussion with someone and they ask you a question,
tell them to look it up online instead of just answering their question.
Then see what kind of reaction you get.

Hammer wrote:...Little sensitive Hotrod, don't you think? If anyone chewed you out, I didn't see it. And if your goal is to actually start fires, "study material" is a lot move valuable than another fire starter that won't work for you. If someone lamented that they couldn't sharpen a chainsaw to save their life...

I guess "lectured" would have been more accurate rather than chewed out.
There was a little bit of sarcasm / exaggeration in my "can't start a fire to save my life" comment,
guess I need to be more careful to add the little smileys.
And note that I didn't ask how to start a fire, I asked about effectiveness of using vaselined cotton balls to do so...
a question which you didn't bother answering.
Thanks again for answering, Durango.

Hotrod180,

My post was supposed to be irresistibly humorous! Not trying to give advice on social skills, which I have almost zero.

8GCBC wrote:Hotrod180, My post was supposed to be irresistibly humorous! Not trying to give advice on social skills, which I have almost zero.

Me too, in the social skills dept.
Unfortunately it's sometimes hard to discern humor / sarcasm /etc from the printed word,
vs face-to-face encounters where you can read facial expressions and body language.