I'd like to request an opinion from some of the high time pilots on the forum, for my own education. I've read on this forum about the concept of not flying in the afternoon in Idaho, only flying in the early morning, etc. I've never flown in Idaho, not even once. So I have zero personal experience.

However, I have flown in the Sierra Nevada mountains, Owens Valley, central Nevada, Reno/Minden area, and the southwest desert a little bit. Most if not all of this flying was during the afternoons, around gusty or windy conditions, pretty strong updrafts and downdrafts, mountain ridges, etc. 3/4 of the time was in gliders, some of it in a T-craft, and a tiny little bit in the 172.

Flying in these conditions required you to be a lot sharper and more aware of micrometeorology. Much more immediate and severe penalties for not keeping control over the airplane. Not for brand new pilots, for sure. But it also didn't seem like I was defying death or being stupid every time I did it. Other people were doing the same thing without being swallowed by the Grim Reaper.

So my question is, what is it that is different about flying in Idaho, that justifies sitting on the ground in the afternoon, that is worse than flying around Minden, or austin, or Bishop in the afternoon? What is it about Idaho as opposed to any other place with mountains and canyons?

I'm not saying they're wrong to suggest morning-only in Idaho.

Good point EZ, all I could say would be at least in the Frank, your options are few/fewer then the wide open Owens Valley. Getting the wreckage out costs a lot more also I'm told! And of course the strips are more conflicted as per width/length/ and clear (?) approaches and departures. My local flying is much higher then when I fly the Frank, heck my home strip is Mile Hi height, so it's not the altitude giving them pause. Lots of tight little canyons, DEEP canyons, (that's probably the main reason right there) lots of trees, and where it's not trees or canyons it's river, really nasty terrain.

EZFlap wrote:I'd like to request an opinion from some of the high time pilots on the forum, for my own education. I've read on this forum about the concept of not flying in the afternoon in Idaho, only flying in the early morning, etc. I've never flown in Idaho, not even once. So I have zero personal experience.

However, I have flown in the Sierra Nevada mountains, Owens Valley, central Nevada, Reno/Minden area, and the southwest desert a little bit. Most if not all of this flying was during the afternoons, around gusty or windy conditions, pretty strong updrafts and downdrafts, mountain ridges, etc. 3/4 of the time was in gliders, some of it in a T-craft, and a tiny little bit in the 172.

Flying in these conditions required you to be a lot sharper and more aware of micrometeorology. Much more immediate and severe penalties for not keeping control over the airplane. Not for brand new pilots, for sure. But it also didn't seem like I was defying death or being stupid every time I did it. Other people were doing the same thing without being swallowed by the Grim Reaper.

So my question is, what is it that is different about flying in Idaho, that justifies sitting on the ground in the afternoon, that is worse than flying around Minden, or austin, or Bishop in the afternoon? What is it about Idaho as opposed to any other place with mountains and canyons?

I'm not saying they're wrong to suggest morning-only in Idaho.

Bob Johnson made the decision after the Trimotor wreck at Moose Creek that resulted in several fatalities to not operate after 11:00. The Ford wrecked later in the day because of erratic winds. Up until that time the pilots had their discretion as whether to operate at a particular strip or not. Johnson Flying Service didn't loose a plane in a back country landing mishap after that. All parties involved knew the time limitations, so you just planed for it. It worked well, it made decision making easy, and was definitely safer.

lesuther wrote:You might ask about Moose instead. And Choice Aviation out of Hamilton can do it if nothing else. Ive run into him a few times in the evenings there with dropoffs.

Moose is too far down the river.

I don't think there is anything that special about the afternoon rule in Idaho; as the air temp increases in the mountains so do the winds and possible thunderstorm activity. Because we are in airplanes we also care about the increasing density altitude. All this happens everywhere there are mountains. Like CG said in the Idaho backcountry the canyons are deep, trees are tall and options to land the plane are few. Maybe these conditions exist in the Sierras and we are just wimps up here.

I've done a fair bit of flying back there in the afternoon and always heard quite a bit of 135 traffic which is why I was surprised when I was told no. It really isn't a big deal, I just found it interesting that I know they fly in the afternoon all the time but weren't interested in this flight.

On the other token, how late does one have to wait to if they want to fly into their destination in the evening? Does this vary for somewhere like garden valley compared to johnson creek?

idair wrote:On the other token, how late does one have to wait to if they want to fly into their destination in the evening? Does this vary for somewhere like garden valley compared to johnson creek?

Just use your best judgement. Every situation is going to be different. I've taken off out of Johnson Creek in the afternoon in the 170 with a full load but light on fuel. I waited until after 6pm to depart, later would be better. The sun stays up pretty late out there in the summer time, you can take off pretty late in the day with a lot of light left. I wouldn't be nearly as worried at a place like Garden Valley. It's a longer strip and nearly 2,000ft lower in elevation.

Rob is right, every situation is different. I didn't have much issue with arriving at most of the places I was willing to take the Luscombe I had at anytime of day. Departing was different and depended on conditions. One time I arrived at Upper Loon in the middle of the afternoon, winds were kinda all over but manageable. I would have never departed in those conditions; I watched a air taxi C206 depart the next afternoon in similar conditions and almost ended up in the trees.

I fly quite a bit in the afternoons after 6, and after 7 is better. I'm always happy to let winds and heat scrub evening flights in the heat of summer.

I could be wrong, but It seems like most of the tragic stuff has occurred during the heat of the day in the Frank. I've had moments of flying back there early on that made me respect the reality of mid day air that often exists after 10 or 11 and before the evening glass off begins.

Have you tried the Wengers at Running Creek? Just a thought.

This is exactly the question I was trying to find an answer for. What is it about this part of the world that is different from Nevada and the Sierras, such that you would be ill-advised to take off at 2PM? Again I'm not doubting or thumbing my nose at the estabilshed conventional wisdom, I'm trying to understand why it is that way in Idaho more than it is elsewhere?

EZFlap wrote:This is exactly the question I was trying to find an answer for. What is it about this part of the world that is different from Nevada and the Sierras, such that you would be ill-advised to take off at 2PM? Again I'm not doubting or thumbing my nose at the estabilshed conventional wisdom, I'm trying to understand why it is that way in Idaho more than it is elsewhere?

The difference is you are dealing with shorter airstrips usually with terrain and/or trees on the approach and departure. High DA and winds in the afternoon can make departures impossible at some locations or very dangerous. Downdrafts along with high DA can kill your climb. It's also just not any fun flying around in turbulence in the mountains getting the crap kicked out of you. Most of the airstrips in the Sierras are all long and paved and generally have more open approaches and departures than many of the Idaho backcountry airstrips. I think if there were a lot of shorter backcountry airstrips in the Sierras people would say the same thing as they do about flying the Idaho backcountry

Departing a Big Creek strip at 2pm on a thermally day can sometimes lead to surprises. Catching a down canyon wind out of a tributary might even cut IAS by 15 mph all of a sudden and makes the rocks look bigger in a hurry. Ive been rocked around a lot more in Idaho than even hang gliding in the Owens on a hot day. The air goes in a lot of directions at once in a short distance....the windsocks can point away from each other or any other direction in the middle of the day. One or two memories of doing it on the wrong day is all a person needs to be inspired to keep a fly line in the water for a few more hours to wait it out. Plus some of the one way strips get a tailwind all day until late, or are only calm in the morning.

Most of the time you'll be fine. The rest can leave twisties in the seat upholstery or worse. It is hard to know exactly what kind of day it is without a lot of specific knowledge of the local environment. Its so much easier and safer to wait for more stable air, and that is a big reason why people are not in a hurry to pull out the sik saks for themselves or their passengers in the middle of the day.

EZFlap wrote:This is exactly the question I was trying to find an answer for. What is it about this part of the world that is different from Nevada and the Sierras, such that you would be ill-advised to take off at 2PM? Again I'm not doubting or thumbing my nose at the estabilshed conventional wisdom, I'm trying to understand why it is that way in Idaho more than it is elsewhere?

I did all my training in Northern Nevada and still fly down there frequently but I now live in North Central Idaho where I spend most of my time flying the Idaho Backcountry. The biggest difference seems to to be what everyone described and that is the narrow canyons that you must factor in on your approach. A lot of places have very little bailout room and sometimes only one approach without any go around for most people i.e Cabin Creek and Shearer. I have also learned by spending quite a bit of time on the ground that in a lot of places in the summer the wind seems to shift to a tailwind in the afternoon for the recommended approach direction. It doesn't happen always or everywhere... just when you don't want it to. So the the old timers use the 10/70 rule... if it is a gnarly strip with one approach be there before 10:00 am or when it is cooler than 70 degrees...later than 10 hotter than 70 the risk goes up. Some times doable sometimes not but you are rolling the dice without bailout options. A lot of factors to consider but that is backcountry flying.

EZFlap wrote:What is it about this part of the world that is different from Nevada and the Sierras, such that you would be ill-advised to take off at 2PM?

Probably the best way to visualize the difference is to look at the Sierras on the back (east) side, the side that goes from the floor up to 14k feet without any foothills. Now take an exact copy of that and mirror it and do it so the space at the bottom between these two facing back sides is only wide enough for a river and a 50' wide strip right next to the river.

Now take a giant axe and cut some vees into this and intersect other back to back Sierras. And make them all look similar but some of them be essentially box canyons, so if you make a wrong turn you can't climb out.

Imagine flying right at the tops of the mountains and looking down 4,000 feet to this little thin strip of river, and even thinner piece of grass you want to land on, with nothing else you can emergency land on if something should go wrong. You somehow have to descend to the canyon floor, fly an approach/pattern that is very non-standard and very unique to every strip. In the Cessna 185 you slow up 70mph to fly your approach. Your wing tip is within 10 to 15 feet of treetops and granite for two reasons; the first so you have enough room to make you 180 degree canyon turn (base to final), and the other to leave enough room for the airplane coming around the blind bend to pass by.

It's early morning, the air is cool and smooth, as you make your final canyon turn, loosing sight of your intended landing spot while seeing the ground rush of the mountain on the other side. As you roll wings level and locate you final approach fix and make the last minute dog leg on final your wheels touch and the world is good.

But you woke up late, decided to do some last minute shopping at Cabelas and before you realize it's 3:00 in the afternoon. It's 90 to 100 degrees so these 4,000 foot deep, very narrow canyons, have created their own winds, thermals, and moderate turbulence.

As you drop into this 4,000 foot descent your getting tossed. You continue down to the bottom. The winds are high, gusty, and variable. You have no choice but to fly your pattern and approach at 85mph. You're not comfortable in the turbulence flying 10 to 15 feet from solid granite, so you move away from the rock, maybe 50 feet away. Now you've reduced the room you have for your 180 degree turn. But you are also 15 miles per hour faster so you can't turn as tight. Do you have enough room to make the turn? Maybe. Maybe not. But on this strip you are landing you are committed, it's not a one way strip but if you don't make the turn and are forced to continue on you might not have enough power to climb out, and the canyon narrows even more so once past the 180 degree turn point you have no further options to turn around, you must climb.

You decide to go for it. Your passengers have gotten quiet, they are sure they are going to die. Your mouth gets dry but your hands sweat, all the while the plane is being tossed every which way. You roll out on final and you've never seen anything prettier. But you've still got to land and get stopped. You 15 mph hot, so you eat up a lot of the runway in float. You finally touch down, get hard on the brakes and manage to get her stopped just short of the end of the runway. Your passengers, white as sheets, manage to get out of the plane, fall to the ground and kiss the earth.

Welcome to Idaho summertime, afternoon, backcountry flying. And I'm not making any of this up.

Certainly the steepness of topography and the tightness of the Idaho backcountry strips is more technical than the Sierras where there aren't many designated unpaved strips. But I think the key difference is the unpredictability when thermals start going off. The narrowness and depth of the canyons combined with the relatively strong thermal power of the area creates a combination of wind shear and up/down drafts that can get a plane outside the envelope quickly at low air speeds. So the reason for the time limit is to avoid thermals. Mike

OK, I'm starting to understand. There is something different in Idaho than what I was used to in the desert.

Thank you for the lurid descriptions of flying around with the Grim Reaper sitting on the wing

I thoroughly enjoyed your descriptive story Barnstormer. Brings back some memories of me practically falling out of the plane, shaking like a leaf and just lying on the ground wondering how the plane is still in one piece.

Barnstormer wrote:

EZFlap wrote:What is it about this part of the world that is different from Nevada and the Sierras, such that you would be ill-advised to take off at 2PM?

Probably the best way to visualize the difference is to look at the Sierras on the back (east) side, the side that goes from the floor up to 14k feet without any foothills. Now take an exact copy of that and mirror it and do it so the space at the bottom between these two facing back sides is only wide enough for a river and a 50' wide strip right next to the river.

Now take a giant axe and cut some vees into this and intersect other back to back Sierras. And make them all look similar but some of them be essentially box canyons, so if you make a wrong turn you can't climb out.

Imagine flying right at the tops of the mountains and looking down 4,000 feet to this little thin strip of river, and even thinner piece of grass you want to land on, with nothing else you can emergency land on if something should go wrong. You somehow have to descend to the canyon floor, fly an approach/pattern that is very non-standard and very unique to every strip. In the Cessna 185 you slow up 70mph to fly your approach. Your wing tip is within 10 to 15 feet of treetops and granite for two reasons; the first so you have enough room to make you 180 degree canyon turn (base to final), and the other to leave enough room for the airplane coming around the blind bend to pass by.

It's early morning, the air is cool and smooth, as you make your final canyon turn, loosing sight of your intended landing spot while seeing the ground rush of the mountain on the other side. As you roll wings level and locate you final approach fix and make the last minute dog leg on final your wheels touch and the world is good.

But you woke up late, decided to do some last minute shopping at Cabelas and before you realize it's 3:00 in the afternoon. It's 90 to 100 degrees so these 4,000 foot deep, very narrow canyons, have created their own winds, thermals, and moderate turbulence.

As you drop into this 4,000 foot descent your getting tossed. You continue down to the bottom. The winds are high, gusty, and variable. You have no choice but to fly your pattern and approach at 85mph. You're not comfortable in the turbulence flying 10 to 15 feet from solid granite, so you move away from the rock, maybe 50 feet away. Now you've reduced the room you have for your 180 degree turn. But you are also 15 miles per hour faster so you can't turn as tight. Do you have enough room to make the turn? Maybe. Maybe not. But on this strip you are landing you are committed, it's not a one way strip but if you don't make the turn and are forced to continue on you might not have enough power to climb out, and the canyon narrows even more so once past the 180 degree turn point you have no further options to turn around, you must climb.

You decide to go for it. Your passengers have gotten quiet, they are sure they are going to die. Your mouth gets dry but your hands sweat, all the while the plane is being tossed every which way. You roll out on final and you've never seen anything prettier. But you've still got to land and get stopped. You 15 mph hot, so you eat up a lot of the runway in float. You finally touch down, get hard on the brakes and manage to get her stopped just short of the end of the runway. Your passengers, white as sheets, manage to get out of the plane, fall to the ground and kiss the earth.

Welcome to Idaho summertime, afternoon, backcountry flying. And I'm not making any of this up.

I could not agree more...

having several thousand hours flying the Nevada / Sierra Nevada backcountry and landing in more places than I can count, most I have made up myself, the Idaho backcountry is by far and away the most technical / challenging terrain I have ever flown. You nail the deep canyons, mountain winds in your post above Barnstormer. I have made 6 or 7 Idaho trips now and without a shadow of a doubt there is not a place in the US more challenging...at least what I have found. People talk about the Alaska flying as difficult and I just dont agree. Whats difficult there is the weather. Generally your flying in and around sea level unless your doing the winter or fall stuff with skis or chasing critters.

Idaho is the real deal

AKT

No question we deal with the weather up here. But my highest DA landing in Alaska was less than 4000 feet. My lowest was less than -4000 feet...

I would love to have a chance to fly in Idaho a bit.

whee wrote:I thoroughly enjoyed your descriptive story Barnstormer. Brings back some memories of me practically falling out of the plane, shaking like a leaf and just lying on the ground wondering how the plane is still in one piece.

Then why would you want to subject your wife to such a wild ride? The pro's have an afternoon cut off policy for a reason.

Troy Hamon wrote:No question we deal with the weather up here. But my highest DA landing in Alaska was less than 4000 feet. My lowest was less than -4000 feet...

I would love to have a chance to fly in Idaho a bit.

Interesting comment Troy, I often wondered about that.... as I know AK has some big ass mountains, but most of the flying I see in vids anyway takes place down lower? A lot at near sea level?? Must be nice, I sure enjoy the heck out of the coast whenever I get down there, and I always think of how a sea level pilot could really get a wake up call when headed high, where as a high country pilot going low just has a lot of fun with all that extra power.