So I'm back from the trip to Montana. She flew great the entire time. Have around 40 hours on her now and I must say I love the RSTOL. Have landed her in all sorts of winds. Tailwinds, crosswinds, rotors, and headwinds. Her manners and behavior are fine, her control response is quick. The flap gap seals have to go though. They are a speed mod not a STOL mod and although Robertson sold them they are not part of the RSTOL kit. Willie Stene gave me a great tip on removing them without drilling out and replacing the crazy number of rivets. We will cut a small "V" at each end and then scribe a line between them over and over until we can just snap the seals off. Brilliant.

Welcome back!

I too have the R-Stol on the Skywagon and really appreciate it. I have the flap gap seals as well. If the gap seals are a speed mod and not a STOL mod, does that mean that the R-Stol will be even better without them? I just can't imagine it being more effective than it already is on the slow end and having something to speed me up on the fast end seems desirable. Why do you want to remove them so badly?

Ggg,

Thanks!

Removing the flap gap seals won't affect the RSTOL itself, but it will allow hi-pressure air to go through the slot between the flaps and the wing to energize the boundary layer on the flaps, which will both reduce drag and enhance lift. Basically putting the flaps back the way Cessna intended which for slow flight is good. In theory allowing the plane to fly slower. Since I've got VG's smart thing would be for me to tuft the flaps as is and go fly and video it and see what the flaps looks like in various flight profiles. That sounds kinda cool actually.

As to your last question, this is likely the last 185 I'll ever own so I intend to do what I can to make it the best STOL aircraft it can be. As much an exercise in fun as in utility.

If you can post pics of that removal. We have the gap seals on our's as well. Curious to see your results.

Squash wrote:Welcome back!

I too have the R-Stol on the Skywagon and really appreciate it. I have the flap gap seals as well. If the gap seals are a speed mod and not a STOL mod, does that mean that the R-Stol will be even better without them? I just can't imagine it being more effective than it already is on the slow end and having something to speed me up on the fast end seems desirable. Why do you want to remove them so badly?

Greg,

Do you have a Sportsman cuff on your 185 also? If not, you need one. I couldn’t believe how much that mod did for the 185 I flew, which had the RSTOL kit as well. Wished we’d done it years earlier.

MTV

I definitely want to see the video of the tufts on the flaps. Before and after of course.

Sportsman? Nope, it just has the R-STOL cuff. It is a 72 model and did not have the Cessna chamber cuff. Will it make me go slower and faster? I want both you know.

Squash wrote:I definitely want to see the video of the tufts on the flaps. Before and after of course.

Sportsman? Nope, it just has the R-STOL cuff. It is a 72 model and did not have the Cessna chamber cuff. Will it make me go slower and faster? I want both you know.

I was skeptical about adding a Sportsman cuff to an RSTOL equipped airplane when our Aircraft division started discussing doing so. But it turned out that the only down side I saw was the slight increase in weight of the cuff. This was on a 1985 model, so already had the Cessna “Camber Lift” leading edge.

Go faster? Nope, but the slow speed handling was noticeably better, the stall totally mellow, and the aileron gap seals gave back significant aileron authority.

MTV

Ggg,

I put the Sportsman and WingX on my 73 185. Saw zero difference in cruise speed but it made a huge difference in low speed flyability. I won't do WingX on this 185 (at least not initially) but will definitely do Sportsman.

**********
I would like to take a moment and speak to the concern some have voiced on the question of stress that might be put on the aileron system when using them as additional flaps as the RSTOL does. From the yoke the ailerons are controlled via cables. But from the flaps the ailerons are drooped via push rods, not putting any stress on the cables at all. Additionally the ailerons are certified to be used full deflection at maneuvering speed 118kts (136mph). Flaps extended speed with the RSTOL is 95kts (109mph), so well within the operating range of the ailerons, and when drooped they are no where near their full deflection capability.

Indeed, Robertson did extensive testing during certification of their RSTOL mods, including providing comprehensive Flight Manual Supplements, something many if not most other mods don’t provide these days. It’s really nice to have actiual flight test data and procedures documented rather than “Our mod will decrease your stall speed 15 mph and make you much more attractive to members of the opposite sex, or the same sex, if you prefer.”

I’ve visited with one of the Robertson flight test engineers, and their test protocols were thorough.

MTV

Barnstormer wrote:….Willie Stene gave me a great tip on removing them without drilling out and replacing the crazy number of rivets. We will cut a small "V" at each end and then scribe a line between them over and over until we can just snap the seals off. Brilliant.

My 180 had flap seals when I bought it, otherwise it was a stock wing.
I decided to remove the flap gap seals.
Grinding / drilling / punching out all those cherry max's was a PITA but I got her done.
Unfortunately the airplane was painted after the gap seals were installed, so now I have a nice odd-colored strip down each wing.
If it weren't for that, the row of little holes wouldn't hardly be noticeable.
Proof of that is that after I removed my gap seals,
my buddy & I noticed his 180 had the same row of little holes as mine--
neither of us had ever noticed them before.

BTW FWIW I noticed very little difference in either cruise speed or low-speed handling after the gap seals were removed.

The flap gap seals are no more. Thank you Willie Stene for suggesting a super easy and quick way to get them off.

Started at the wing root.


Then cut them into two pieces to make it more manageable to scribe and snap off.


Next step is to run a box cutter down them three to five times. Then snap them off.


Next step is to remove these braces.


Discarded parts.


And PRESTO flaps the way Cessna designed them.

Thanks for the pics.

That's my #1 way to cut sheet aluminum these days.
It's perfect for duplicating skins or when you need a long straight cut without a shear.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003U ... oolguyd-20

A few swipes with a straight edge, bend, break, wipe with a file a few times and it looks like it came out of a shear.

Mine were installed against the bottom edge of the wing, not slipped into the existing lap joint like yours.
That method of removing them does come out looking clean.
Good job!
Please make a pirep on the before-and-after flight characteristics.
I noticed very little change on my 180.

jrollf wrote:

Barnstormer wrote:

DeltaRomeo wrote:Why don't you just install numerous USB charging ports instead? You know thats what it going to be used for...

That's an excellent question. And the answer is because Garmin hasn't yet learned what a USB connection is. Both my powered inRreach mount and my GDL 39 cables have old-school cigarette lighter plugs. Hopefully some day they'll figure it out, but probably not till everyone else is charging things through the air.

Another good reason is the 'standard' USB plug is slowly becoming obsolete in the electronics industry, there is a move toward the smaller 'USB C' connector.

I personally like to keep the power plug (aka cigarette lighter) because I can always find a charger that adapts to whatever the 'latest' plug that my gadgets have. Once/if the USB plug becomes obsolete you would have a useless plug in your airplane.

That is nonsense about it becoming obsolete... since you are only using the USB port for power, not actual data - there will alway be someone that will make an adapter .... just like for the cigarette lighter. Most new cars don't even come with a cigarette lighter anymore, but almost all have USB - that alone will keep usb peripherals alive for a very long time. And as far as USB C - that is why I went with this http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/mcitrueblueta202series.php it gives me both USB types, plus I have cables that are Dual outputs (USB and Type-C). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075WY6VQ8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. I mean its a bit hokey - you can even get a USB to female 12v lighter socket cable https://www.amazon.com/ARECORD-Cigarette-Lighter-Socket-Converter/dp/B01J67JIOQ for those unicorn devices that have hardwired lighter socket power(without an option to buy it with USB). My only point here is, USB for power it not going to go away for a very very long time. And whatever replaces it, would also replace the lighter socket (like power over air).

Flap gap seals removal by cut,scribe:

Looks to me like a good place for corrosion to start unless dressed and sealed properly.

Kurt

Non-scientific Initial Flight Test Report.

Taking off out of my strip I rolled the power on as I usually do and popped the flaps when I felt she was ready to fly. wasn't paying real close attention so I can't say if that takeoff was shorter or not. I headed over to Soldotna and landed, but not a max performance landing so again, wasn't sure of the results. The takeoff out of Soldotna was a different story.

Very light wind, less the 5 mph. Used the paved runway for takeoff. Used the RSTOL book max takeoff technique of setting 30 degrees of flaps and flying the plane off the ground. The throttle went in and as I instinctively prepared to reach for the Johnson bar and pop her off- she jumped (quite literally) into the air on her own. Much earlier and shorter then she ever has before.

I headed back to my strip and setup to land. Generally I'm landing with a tailwind. Today was no different but is was light. When I have a tail wind I also get a sinker at the beginning of the runway. Since my strip is 1,300 feet long but a oneway with 65' trees on the north end, when I'm landing the 185 I'm doing a moderate performance landing. With the flap gap seals as I got into the sinker the bottom would drop out which required a significant throttle burst to arrest the drop. Same situation today except the drop was far milder and required just some short bursts of power to arrest. A definite improvement here as well.

Again this was non-scientific but I've flown this 185 enough and the low side of the performance envelope to recognize a pretty significant improvement. Once again I have to say I'm very pleased.

The addition of a Sportsman STOL leading edge will be coming later this year.

So you are spending more of my money. First, I have to pay a guy to pull off these flap gap seals. Then I'm gonna have to put a sportsman cuff on. I get where this is going.

I landed just ahead of you today in Soldotna. Fun to see the green and white wagon landing behind the blue and white wagon.

Yep. Look at the bright side. He'll will be quicker on yours cause he has done one now.

Thought that might have been you in front of me. We ought to fly to Talkeetna or somewhere sometime, take our betters with us.

HI Phil!

I have been following this with interest too..... did you get my recent pm?

I've vowed to not go down the rabbit hole of "I need that mod...." but a friend up at Denali just told me that I should fly his 182 with the Sportsman's cuff before I rule anything out. There must be something to it....

I had to run back south to work for a week but I'll be back in your neighborhood around July 9th for a couple of weeks. Hope we can get together sometime.

Keith