Hey guys,

My name is Steve Winegar. I'm a long-time lurker and finally created an account today!

I just got out of the Army where I was a Blackhawk crew chief, and I'll be wrapping up my masters in mechanical engineering next month. I've wanted to own a plane for years, and it finally seems like it might be the right time to buy. My fiancee and I live in Boston, MA, and will be here for the next 3 years. We'll be moving somewhere warmer after she finishes medical school. I'm a very low time PPL with about 150 hours total and no TD time. The first half of my hours were in Cessna 172s, and the latter in PA28s.

I was planning to build an experimental aircraft like the Rans S21 given my background, but it seems that there are some good deals on the market for certified planes. I want a well-mannered aircraft that I can grow in as a pilot, but that I won't outgrow too quickly. I want to be able to have respectable cruise performance (around 120kt or better) while also having the ability to get into backcountry flying, which really appeals to me as an outdoorsman. I would eventually like to get my IFR rating for safety, but am not in a rush to do that. Essentially I want a plane that is fun, but well-rounded. I figure almost all of my flying for the next few years will be with one passenger if any, and I want to be able to haul some camping gear for an overnight in good weather, but nothing crazy. I really want to get an aircraft that maximizes the bang for my buck, with an initial budget of around $50k. I'd be open to upgrading some instruments, installing a STOL kit / VGs, etc down the road.

For those reasons I figured one of the 4-seat Cessna airframes might serve me well. If I bought a 172, I know I'd want to put a bigger engine on it because I'm a sucker for climb performance. I've spent too much time in Blackhawks to go back to the sluggish 500 fpm I was getting while in flight school. There seem to be some cheap 175s near TBO on the market, and I think I'd want to STC to something more powerful as well, possibly an O-470 or Franklin. I'd even be open to moving the airframe into the experimental category now that the distance limitation has been lifted if that opened up some good options. A 182 seems like it would be overkill for me, since my fiancee and I won't be having kids anytime soon, and those rear seats will likely be empty for years to come. But having said that, I have a feeling that simply buying a 182 might be cheaper than upgrading the engine on a 172 or 175. Burning auto gas sounds pretty appealing too...

The other aircraft I've been considering are the C150/C152, and the fixed-gear C177. With the 150, I'd probably be looking for on O-320 conversion. I weigh 175 soaking wet, my fiancee 125, and I'm 5'11". I'm not sure if that would leave us with enough useful load for fuel and some camping gear. I think the 177 is a really cool bird, but I assume its STOL performance is limited considering that I've never seen one on fat tires. I'd be willing to look at other airframes, but I don't think I want to do tube and fabric because I don't have a plan for hangaring yet. Also, I think side-by-side would be better for us than tandem seating.

I look forward to hearing y'alls thoughts on what aircraft might be the right one for me!

Steve

You have very successful described all the attributes of a Cessna 170A or B with either a larger Conti (my preference) or Lycoming engine. The big bonus with the Majestic 170 is you get instant membership into the Holy Order of the Round Tails & Knights of the Round Tails Brotherhood (sisters are welcomed as well) henceforth

Cessna 182 is a wonderful all-around platform.

I will concede that the 182 is very likely a better IFR platform.

Yup, you answered your own question with the 182. Early model, pull the back seat - lots of cargo room. Other than putting the big tire kit on - ready to go back country stock.

Thanks guys!

Can someone maybe help me more this topic to the general campfire area? I figure I should have put it there... Otherwise, I can just delete this and put it there myself!

It seems like C170s and C180s are a bit more expensive than similar C172s and C182s.

Steve

I think you have answered your own question.

Can't go wrong with a 170 or 172, or a 180 or 182. Just depends on budget and needs. And if you buy carefully they are all easily resold if your mission changes.

I'd personally avoid the less common models just because you can. But I don't know much about them.

Someone told me once that everyone ends up with a 182 in the end.

Buy carefully and enjoy:)

lawndart wrote:
It seems like C170s and C180s are a bit more expensive than similar C172s and C182s.

Steve

And there are less of them on the market at anytime. But they are more fun.

A 170 A/B could very likely be had at the price range your suggesting. Given your talents the upgrades are well within your skill set and at the end of the day if you move upwards you will have a very marketable asset.

Let's be honest, taildragger are just more fun.......there I said what everyone wanted to say (poke, poke)

What engine would it be best to upgrade an early 170 with?

Would a 170 be a good aircraft to get TD training in, or should I go with something else?

Thanks,

Steve

With the right tutor training on the 170 is manageable, I won't deny there are better TW trainers but there is equally great value in learning on what you intend to operate.

For me the right engine for upgrading is the Conti IO-360 but this is more of a "Chevy vs Ford" issue than better engine option. A Conti fits under the hood, no modification required there and I believe that the engine mount bolts directly on as well (stand to be corrected on that)

That sounds nice! Only trouble is the IO360s seem damned expensive...

Also, who can I ask to move this into the general discussion? Sorry I screwed that up!

Steve

Have you considered buying into a flying club? I can’t imagine Boston prices for owning alone would be very palatable. There are a few clubs I’ve been around that have half a dozen airplanes of various kinds. You could try various planes and get a feel for what you wanted to do and what would really be useful. You cover a lot of ground with a list from a 150 to a 182.

I would recommend the 182 also, it gives you lots of options, comfortable, plenty of speed/power, good IFR platform, ect. Check out the cost of upgrading, replacing, or overhauling an engine, it will take your breath away, in my opinion buy a plane already equipped with the engine setup you would be happy with, it will cost way less in the long run. My crystal ball says airplanes will be getting cheaper because of the current crisis, would guess in the coming months to year, it will be a good time to buy.

Steve

jcadwell wrote:Have you considered buying into a flying club? I can’t imagine Boston prices for owning alone would be very palatable. There are a few clubs I’ve been around that have half a dozen airplanes of various kinds. You could try various planes and get a feel for what you wanted to do and what would really be useful. You cover a lot of ground with a list from a 150 to a 182.

I would definitely do that, but as Steve said in the next comment, I expect that the market will be somewhat depressed over the next few months. I want to make sure that I'm in a position to buy if a good opportunity should arise. If I don't find the right ride at the right price, then I will probably just join a club as you suggested!

Thanks,

Steve

steve wrote:I would recommend the 182 also, it gives you lots of options, comfortable, plenty of speed/power, good IFR platform, ect. Check out the cost of upgrading, replacing, or overhauling an engine, it will take your breath away, in my opinion buy a plane already equipped with the engine setup you would be happy with, it will cost way less in the long run. My crystal ball says airplanes will be getting cheaper because of the current crisis, would guess in the coming months to year, it will be a good time to buy.

Steve

That's exactly what I'm thinking in terms of where the market is headed...

Yes, those costs associated with the 182 are what have me thinking about all those other birds I rattled off. I have my eyes on a 160hp C152 with IFR panel, increased gross weight, and hardpoints already in place for Texas tailwheel conversion. I'm thinking that might fit the bill better than a 182, but have asked the seller for the useful load.

Steve

I owned a 0-320 Cessna 150 with regular tanks and no gross weight increase. It was a fun plane to fly but range sucked. I always had to do a detour along the way for fuel and with the small tanks full with myself at 195 I could only legally carry 90 lbs. I would prefer a 180hp 170-172 or a 180-182 more room nicer in rough weather but $$$. Someday

David K wrote:I owned a 0-320 Cessna 150 with regular tanks and no gross weight increase. It was a fun plane to fly but range sucked. I always had to do a detour along the way for fuel and with the small tanks full with myself at 195 I could only legally carry 90 lbs. I would prefer a 180hp 170-172 or a 180-182 more room nicer in rough weather but $$$. Someday

Thanks a lot for that input. The 150 and 152 are off the list!

I guess I might as well do some reading on the Stinson 108 series... I just know nothing about owning/maintaining fabric, and knowing nothing makes me shy away from it!

Steve

Steve,

Welcome!!!

A few quick points to ponder.

Tailwheel airplanes cost more to buy for the same airplane 170/172, 180/182 and so on.

A $50,000 airplane could be very expensive in the long run where a $70,000 airplane could be cheaper. It’s not just purchase price. A 50,000 big engine 170 or straight tail 182 could be pretty tired and needing expensive attention in the near future, I may be wrong on the exact numbers but I think you probably understand what I am trying to say. Buy the nicest airplane you can find in your budget, it may not be the “do it all” airplane you desire but it will get you flying and it will also let you save up for upgrading to a more capable airplane in the future. Don’t be set in in your thinking that you have to buy your “do it all” airplane now especially if its a ratty one that you could barely afford to buy. Get a nice sweet airplane to enjoy now that hits on most of your needs and wants that is easy to sell down the road and have fun. Another thing to consider is the cost of tailwheel insurance, it can be shocking in some cases. We all like tail wheel airplanes but once in the air they all fly the same (for the most part). Tailwheel airplanes are more expensive all around. Keep an open mind.

Boston area? I used to live in the NH sea coast area, hangar space isn't easy to come by and not cheap. Where do you plan to base your airplane?

A170, Aeronca Sedan, Stinson 108, Champ, Cub, Taylorcraft would all be good for tailwheel instruction with the right instructor. Go to Hampton and fly the Cub, you will have a blast!

Have fun and good luck!

Kurt

PS. Having owned many airplanes over the years I think a 182 is very hard to beat, that is what I would be targeting. Converting a 170 or 172 to 180hp could cost 50k just for the upgrade alone. Think $$$ when doing a conversion!

lawndart wrote:I guess I might as well do some reading on the Stinson 108 series... I just know nothing about owning/maintaining fabric, and knowing nothing makes me shy away from it!

It's not terribly hard to find a Stinson 108 that's been metalized, finding one with a 220 Franklin or O-470 might be tough, though. Stinsons are generally regarded as great handling, safe, undervalued planes, but it might be a good idea to make sure you have a mechanic available that's not afraid of a Franklin. I have seen some nice looking ones with O-470's selling for under your budget, but like I mentioned before, getting a metal one with the 470 would be a bit like finding a unicorn.

The -3's have the bigger tail, which can make ground handling a bit more difficult, but also have 50 gallons of fuel vs. 40 gallons in the other 108 models. The -3 spars are also more prone to corrosion.