Well said, ranchpilot.

No one is trying to dissuade anyone. Or giving any shit to those who choose to wear added protection. The original post was a question as to the need to wear Nomex or any similar fabrics.
Some believe you should wear it in the off chance you might need it. Others believe you don't need to bother.
I always ski with a helmet and ride my dirt bike dressed up like the road warrior. I choose not to wear nomex any more because in my aircraft it won't afford me any real measure of protection. If others choose to wear it, that's their prerogative. It makes sense to them.
To me, the argument that we all should wear and use every safety measure is not practical.
Should we all fly trikes because a lot of taildraggers ground loop?
If you try to apply logic to our sport, the logical conclusion would be to quit flying.

This has been a useful discussion, and one that could prove valuable for one or more of us who choose to apply the hard lessons learned by others. For any who may not agree, that's fine too. Whatever floats your boat. However, the "it doesn't matter anyway" and "if we're afraid of risk maybe we should all quit flying" lines of reasoning don't serve to advance the discussion much.

I wear a helmet now when flying low or in rough terrain because I read about Berk on BCP. I preflight my pax on how to use a SPOT now because I read about Shyann on BCP. You could have made the same "it doesn't matter anyway" arguments for each of those situations too, but it might have made the difference for them. Besides, for the minimal expense and inconvenience it has cost me to apply those terrible lessons, I'm not out much even if, in the end, it truly doesn't matter.

I'm not talking about needing a bigger plane to carry all my safety gear. I'm simply talking about wearing cotton or Nomex versus the fleece or poly pro I would have otherwise worn. If it weren't for discussions like these, in which people get past the initial "flying is risky" and "it doesn't matter anyway" starting points, I probably wouldn't have ever thought much about it. Hopefully it won't ever matter, one way or another. If it ever does, though, I want to give myself the best possible chance.

In the end, I hope all of these discussions end up being purely academic for all of us. Cheers.

Ranchpilot: I hope my posts didn't come across as trying to persuade anyone not to invest in safety gear, that was NOT my intent at all. I was trying to convey the idea that for myself, and not speaking for others, I have to try and prioritize. I fly on a limited budget of time and money. For me, a $100 shirt is a lower priority than renewing my SPOT subscription, I can rebuild one of my mags for the price of a helmet, etc. For me, surfing the internet researching stick and rudder skills and burning avgas is a better use of my time than shopping for the coolest new safety gear. My idea is that the more of my time and money that I invest in honing my skills and maintaing my airplane, the less likely I am to need some of the safety gear. This may be an idealistic approach, but I choose to try to mitigate the risks as much as I can. Not saying it's right, but thats my choice.

Well said Jeredp. I agree with you. Id rather spend my linited budget on avgas.
One thing with nomex is you cant just buy a pair of coveralls and think your good. You need to wear it feom the skin up to be truly protected. Wearing over top of poly wont do much good as the heat or flames going up your legs and sleaves will melt whatever is under.
For now, I'm gonna keep burning avgas and honing my skills so hopefully I'll never need nomex. The rest of you can do as you please, not discouraging anyone from doing what makes you personally feel safe.
David

I know what you mean guys, and I'm about as cheap as they come. That's why I posted the link to $10 nomex gloves and $10 nomex long johns. For the same money, or less, than I would have spent on fleece gloves and poly pro long johns, I can add some prevention/protection (in my mind, anyway) to my flying gear. As it turns out, my $10 cheapie nomex long underwear are some of the most comfortable I've ever had, in any fabric.

The last thing I mean to do is sound preachy to anyone. Speaking only for myself, I've decided it is worthwhile to think about what I wear when I fly. Flying is all about managing risk, and it requires us to make tradeoffs all the time. In my mind, this is a low-cost tradeoff for a potentially significant benefit. If it turns out I was wrong, I'm not going to be around to know the difference. If it turns out I was right, I may end up being awful glad I thought about this stuff. Even if a guy never spends a dime on nomex or other FR gear, the simple choice of wearing cotton or wool instead of poly pro could potentially make a big difference.

Safe flying to one and all, no matter what you choose to wear.

During training for a helicopter spray project in the 80s they showed us a video on the protection a nomex flight suit gives. The video featured a Vietnam pilot who had been burned in helicopter. His name was Captain Callahan or Callaway or something like that. It had a lot of information on the testing done during development of nomex clothing. They actually put it on pigs and burned them with a blow torch. I'v googled it but can't find the video. It was quite long. Anyhow, he made the video to convince pilots to wear their nomex. He emphasized that a nomex flight suit will protect you for 7 seconds in a flash fire. That seven seconds was enough for him to get out.

I too was working in the Oil Fields of WY and had to purchase some FR clothing. Wrangler and Carhart has all kinds of FR clothing available.

5.
Limit exposure times to extremely high temperatures when possible. Nomex uniforms are flame resistant, not flame proof. All military FR garments are designed to provide a few SECONDS (normally 3 to 10 seconds) of escape time during fire emergencies before thermal injuries occur. All garments of all types will eventually fail during a large and intense fire.

More on Nomext testing: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a464828.pdf

I am a believer in Nomex. Fighting wildland fire in Nomex vs burning slash in jeans has convinced me of the superior properties of the fabric. Nomex may not save me from an inferno, but it may allow me to egress the aircraft without permanent disability especially to my hands. Recently I had a burn patient at work that became a "human candle" when his Carhart coveralls ignited into a flash fire while welding. The only unburned skin that was available for IV placement were his under his nomex gloves.

Saw this from the USFS about how applying bug dope directly to nomex fabric degrades the fire retardant properties.
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf05512327/pdf05512327dpi72.pdf

fern_hopper wrote:I am a believer in Nomex. Fighting wildland fire in Nomex vs burning slash in jeans has convinced me of the superior properties of the fabric. Nomex may not save me from an inferno, but it may allow me to egress the aircraft without permanent disability especially to my hands. Recently I had a burn patient at work that became a "human candle" when his Carhart coveralls ignited into a flash fire while welding. The only unburned skin that was available for IV placement were his under his nomex gloves.

Saw this from the USFS about how applying bug dope directly to nomex fabric degrades the fire retardant properties.
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf05512327/pdf05512327dpi72.pdf

Was that burn victim wearing FR or non-FR coveralls?

Non FR, standard Carhart overalls.

The standard Carharts just melt. Quickly I might add.

My current set of bibs has a big patch on the leg from where I stood in front of a space heater, while helping change a starter on our Navajo up at Shishmaref at -40. Only took a few seconds in front of the heater and I started smelling burning nylon. I was layered up underneath so I didn't feel any heat. But, I sure started feeling the cold a few minutes later with that outer layer gone.

Without the protection from the sweats and long-handles, I would have had a bad burn from the Carharts.

Gump

The outer layer of every set of Carhartt insulated coveralls I've seen was cotton duck, like this: http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... &langId=-1. But, they also make a coverall with Polyester outers as well: http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... &langId=-1

A fellow in interior Alaska crashed a Super Cub in cold temps, and it lit off. He was wearing Carhartts with cotton duck outer and poly insulation and nylon lining inside. The poly insulation and nylon lining ignited INSIDE the cotton outer layer, and the coveralls stovepiped the fire up around his face and head, where he was burned really badly. He survived, with severe burn injuries to his face and head. Ive' seen those coveralls he was wearing, and the cotton outer layer is just slightly charred in a couple of places, but the entire lining is gone....melted and burned.

So, nylon outers or cotton, if you're thinking Carhartt, order their FLAME RETARDENT versions, if you're going to fly with them.

MTV

RanchPilot wrote:I've never understood the compulsion to give people shit for choosing to wear safety gear. (or not)

Personally, I don't give a damn whether anybody else chooses to wear Nomex (or helmets, or shoulder harnesses, or parachutes) or not.

I know this is the internet, where everybody has an opinion about everything.

Rant over.

Good words! If you're going to spew any!

Carhartt has a whole line of fire retardant clothing. Head to toe.

http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... 17182651:s

G'Day

M6RV6 wrote:Just a stupid question from the same kind of person!!
If I am flying along @ 2-10,000' in my bugsmasher STOL, and am suddenly on fire!!
What is Nomex going to do for me??
There was a Guide quite a few years ago north of Fairbanks flying along with 2 hunters @ about 3000' agl in his trusty Helio Courier when all of a sudden he was on fire! It is a really terrible listen to his radio transmissions until the wing burnt off!!
Not sure if anyone can find the recording or not??
But in the few minutes they had, Nomex would not have mattered.
Now maybe if I screw up a take off or a landing and catch on fire the nomex would help???
Only if I was able to get out??
Like someone said above, I think it is a really big Hype!
Just my $.02
And for sure that's more than it's worth.

GT

Next time you're in Galena, look up Roger Huntington.

MTV

mtv wrote:

M6RV6 wrote:Just a stupid question from the same kind of person!!
If I am flying along @ 2-10,000' in my bugsmasher STOL, and am suddenly on fire!!
What is Nomex going to do for me??
There was a Guide quite a few years ago north of Fairbanks flying along with 2 hunters @ about 3000' agl in his trusty Helio Courier when all of a sudden he was on fire! It is a really terrible listen to his radio transmissions until the wing burnt off!!
Not sure if anyone can find the recording or not??
But in the few minutes they had, Nomex would not have mattered.
Now maybe if I screw up a take off or a landing and catch on fire the nomex would help???
Only if I was able to get out??
Like someone said above, I think it is a really big Hype!
Just my $.02
And for sure that's more than it's worth.

GT

Next time you're in Galena, look up Roger Huntington.

MTV

I know Roger pretty well, I visited with him a bit last year! One thing about Roger, TOUGH COMES IN SOME SMALL PACKAGES!!
Do you think he has ever worn nomex since??

For the rest of us... Since what?

CamTom12 wrote:For the rest of us... Since what?

Roger and another fellow put a Stinson on the tundra, North of Galena I believe and they both got burnt real bad, I think Roger hiked either 13 or 23 miles out to get help! MTV might have more of the story or the correct stuff, Long time ago. Accounting was second hand to me.
If memory serves me right?(I'm getting old!) He was either wearing Carharts or Walls Coveralls.
MTV Am I close?