hotrod150 wrote:Substitute one of those alpaca knit hats with earflaps for the plain-jane beanie, and add a pair of Converse Chuck Taylor All-Stars or berkenstocks.

Add bass guitar and creative facial hair, and we're there.

Not to say some of you ain't right but I think nomex does help block the heat. I was running an open cab dozer on wildfires this summer and I had flames the height of a D5 Cat high drive(about 10 feet high) a road width away from me and I was wearing full nomex except for my neck and head and it felt like the side of my head was getting singed. That fire was HOT. I had Air Force issue nomex gloves and I held my hand over the side of my face to block the heat. I never really felt the heat on my hand at all or the rest of my body because of the nomex. The fire was burning tall and thick sage and grass and it was already close to 100 degrees outside in the Nevada desert in August. I should also note that it was not for just a few seconds, I was in the heat for a few minutes.

Just my opinion. Fire can burn through nomex though. I've seen many wildland firefighters with holes on the bottom of their nomex pants from small embers and such.

FS: New Nomex flight suit. Asking $85 includes shipping. Wife bought me for Christmas but too tight (I'm 6-2", 210 lbs). More specs: CWU 64/P winter nomex flight suit, size 40R. PM if interested, pics available.

rob

Good deal on Gen 2 Nomex gloves if anyone is interested. 2 pairs for 20 bucks. They come in black, OD, and tan.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/2-prs-of-fox-tactical-gen-2-nomex-gloves.aspx?a=1675255

I witnessed a 182 hit a tree on final and pile into a parking lot. Being a firefighter and seeing this, I can tell you for certain that nomex or any other type of clothing will do nothing for you. When the 182 impacted the ground, the fire/explosion was instantaneous. I think you are much better putting your efforts into having clothes that you can survive in, being stranded for a few day in the event of an accident.

I think the idea of a helmet is good, as the likelihood of having an impact without fire is also fairly high. My hesitation with that is buying a helmet and then convincing my wife not to worry when I take the kids flying.

I'm not trying to pee in anyones cheerios about the nomex but having witnessed what I did, I have come to peace with the fact what we do for fun has it's inherent risks and my time is better spent on good decision making and educating myself the best I can to help minimize those risks.

I used to drink beer with the General, neat guy with lot's of first hand info on burns. I met him after attending one of his safety classes. This video is long but well worth watching if you have time, not all on just flying safety. If not, got to about 40 to 45 minutes to see the photos he shows of folks burned in crashes. I watch this periodically, I always think about his idea of taking a shower and having clean clothes before flying. What to wear? To each his own!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emHSdz0nWLg

"I witnessed a 182 hit a tree on final and pile into a parking lot. Being a firefighter and seeing this, I can tell you for certain that nomex or any other type of clothing will do nothing for you. When the 182 impacted the ground, the fire/explosion was instantaneous."

True, to a point. However your argument is a bit flawed. It's like saying the seat belt in your car is useless because it wont save you when you drive off the Golden Gate Bridge. Nomex is not meant to protect you from a catastrophic engulfment.

(As a medic) I've seen burns from quick explosions and have to say that when you witness the delineation on flesh between exposed skin and even a thin cotton shirt, you can make the easy argument that the more protection the better. Certainly one may be too cheap or too cool to get all geeked out on that stuff, and certainly it will never happen to you... But if there is even a .01% chance I might not have to deal with years of reconstructive and grafts, I might just take a chance by looking like a dink on the flight line. Just a thought.

I have not tried to think my way through all the ways burns could happen and whether nomex is worth it. However I am fairly convinced that most synthetics have the possibility to make a minor fire into major burns. So I don't wear them in a plane. Ever. Simple deal. Wool, cotton, and silk. Haven't got a helmet but seems reasonable to get one. And in winter there are gloves...always leather with wool.

The Army had a couple of pilots go around to schools and training areas to give a safety briefing. They were in a Huey that was shot down and fireballed. They were both in the aircraft until troops removed them, at least two minutes. One had his sleeves rolled up and everything else to spec. The other one had his gloves on, sleeves down and over gloves, pants over boots (no John Wayne blousing like the 101st Airborne,) shirt tucked completely inside pants, and collar velcrowed closed under chin. 93rd Evac Hospital had taken pictures soon after they were treated. The pilot with all nomex in its proper place had what appeared to be slight sunburn on his torso and arms. The pilot with the sleeves up lost both hands (radial burns) and his arms were deformed by scar tissue.

Scarred the pee out of me in flight school. I had gotten my commercial with the ROTC flight program and had flown and fueled around gas (much more volatile than JP-4 for years without nomex. I wore helmet with nape and chin strap in place, nomex with sleeves down, gloves, and pant legs over leather boots for all flights military and civilian after that. In eleven engine failures and five crashes, I never burned, but I was ready for it. Kind of like an engine failure on takeoff (only had one of those,) you have to be spring loaded to the failure. No use considering what might have been during the event.

I wore the more comfortable Army nomex until I wore it out spraying and it got scarce. The Army had to go with the less comfortable one piece in the 80s. Hard to take a dump in the field.

bigrenna wrote:"I witnessed a 182 hit a tree on final and pile into a parking lot. Being a firefighter and seeing this, I can tell you for certain that nomex or any other type of clothing will do nothing for you. When the 182 impacted the ground, the fire/explosion was instantaneous."

True, to a point. However your argument is a bit flawed. It's like saying the seat belt in your car is useless because it wont save you when you drive off the Golden Gate Bridge. Nomex is not meant to protect you from a catastrophic engulfment.

(As a medic) I've seen burns from quick explosions and have to say that when you witness the delineation on flesh between exposed skin and even a thin cotton shirt, you can make the easy argument that the more protection the better. Certainly one may be too cheap or too cool to get all geeked out on that stuff, and certainly it will never happen to you... But if there is even a .01% chance I might not have to deal with years of reconstructive and grafts, I might just take a chance by looking like a dink on the flight line. Just a thought.

I definitely see your point. I guess what i'm getting at is I feel that it is very very unlikely that you will survive a crash involving avgas and fire because the amount of heat and flame is incredible and instantaneous. Nomex or anything else for that matter can't protect your lungs and that is what kills people. I do beleive that it could protect you in the event of an electrical fire in the cockpit or something of that nature. My point of view has nothing to do with how you look on the flightline or how much it costs. Besides, no one can look as silly as a C.A.P. pilot in a flight suit that might have fit him 30 years ago, so we'll always have them to laugh at.

Fatalism is less popular in combat and other tragic situations. It is human nature not to want to die. Given that, it seems silly to chance, or invite pain. Safety items mitigate pain, not tragedy.

If you haven't shopped nomes in a while, you should relook it. Though it is expensive, the fire resistant products from companies like massif are comfortable, warm (if that's what you're looking for), and have a little more style to them. I have the first cut of experimental gear that we tested in 2005. I've worn the snot out of it because it is so comfortable. Light, middle, and extreme weight long johns, fleece, jackets, and accessories. I even shred a set with someone on the site for testing.

We had an aircraft burn to the ground during run up back in 2007/2008. Crew was affected by a JP-4 fueled fire before they could egress. The exposure time was very quick, but resulted in very light burns on exposed skin. Protected skin wasn't burned at all. I've also seen the effects of an arctic tent fire where the occupants were wearing poly pro. All it took was the flash fire set the melting and resultant burns in motion.

Granted, the chance of anything discussed here being relevant is minuscule. I wear fleece lined car harts to fly most of the time. They'd go up like a candle. I'm simply providing info about the products that are available these days.

Brett

contactflying wrote:Fatalism is less popular in combat and other tragic situations. It is human nature not to want to die. Given that, it seems silly to chance, or invite pain. Safety items mitigate pain, not tragedy.

Love that post. Perhaps the most eloquent I've read. Kudos-

bigrenna wrote:

contactflying wrote:Fatalism is less popular in combat and other tragic situations. It is human nature not to want to die. Given that, it seems silly to chance, or invite pain. Safety items mitigate pain, not tragedy.

Love that post. Perhaps the most eloquent I've read. Kudos-

Agreed. Very well said.

This subject is something that I have been working on with Off Airport Gear. I work in the Gas and Oil industry and FR (Flame Resistant) clothing abounds. Finally, clothing manufacturers are getting on the bandwagon and starting to make more varying styles rather than just the typical fashions coming out of Texas and Louisiana (not that there is anything wrong with that!). I have been in contact with multiple manufacturers of these types of FR clothing and the issues that I am running into are minimum annual sales issues to become a supplier. The second problem is the expense of carrying inventory. I guess more will be revealed in these thread on this issue, but I have noted what many of you have said and I am moving away from poly blend shirts and will be going to 100% cotton. Actually I will be releasing another T shirt this month that is 100% cotton.

My idea for the FR clothing involves printing my designs on them, so we all will WANT to wear it. I hate the idea of military flightsuits on the ramp of a GA airport as I get out of my cub. I want to look like I do walking down the street and I can tell you like UH-60 said, the new stuff is very comfortable.

Something like this for instance:





Self-fabric crew neck collar › Tagless › Raglan sleeves › Hemmed sleeves > Contrast mesh side seam gusset › Heat seal triangle centered at neck to show wearer has on FR undergarment
Care Home Wash
Fabric Excel FR® Flame-resistant, 5.5 oz. (185 g/m²) 90% Cotton / 10% Polyester with moisture management finish
Protection Arc Rating ATPV 6.4 calories/cm²

Feel free to chime in and give me thoughts on this. I would probably to a pre order with multiple designs. Basically you would pick from say 5 garments and 5 logo's (make your own combo) and do a purchase that way. Then, in a couple weeks, you have your own custom FR shirt that you will want to wear everywhere.

Thanks guys. I agree that old retired military and especially C.A.P. guys look silly in military nomex. For the few clinics I do each year, I wear nice looking blue Forest Service nomex shirt and pants. I buy them on e-bay.

As far as the "how I look thing goes", I wear a bright Orange nomex flight suit over my cloths (jeans and cotton shirt). When I step out of the airplane I take it off and leave it in the airplane, right before I get in, I put it back on. Strutting problem solved. Strutting around the ramp with a flight suit on like a "wanna be" has no appeal to me. I wear the suit for a purpose, not as a "look at me" tool.

What do you all think or merleno wool? I have some wool camp long under ware I got from Cabelas, very comfy but it was kinda expensive, about $100 for each piece, $200 for the upper and lower.

G44

G44 wrote:What do you all think or merleno wool?

Merino wool is awesome! It's not cheap though, and you have to make sure it's 100% wool and not a blend with anything synthetic. I think a simple 100% wool sweater (V-neck if you're feeling sexy) and jeans is a good default pilot suit.

All bets are off in the summer though. I foolishly wear shorts and t-shirt because, well, it feels good.

contactflying wrote:Fatalism is less popular in combat and other tragic situations. It is human nature not to want to die. Given that, it seems silly to chance, or invite pain. Safety items mitigate pain, not tragedy.

Maybe not fatalism as much as realism. I'd wager a bet that most GA aircraft crash fatalities are caused by blunt trauma. Not fire. Yet how many people wear helmets? How many have a 3 or 4 point harness? How many of you wear parachutes because there is a chance you might need one? Or have a whole plane ballistic chute? I have 18 gallons of high-test sitting inches above my head in my plane. How much Nomex will I have to wear to spare me from injury? Even a relatively minor fire is a catastrophic engulfment. I think a gallon or two of burning gas on my head and neck would qualify. But hey, at least my trunk and arms will look nice in my coffin if I wear Nomex.
How many carry PLBs and a well stocked survival pack on every flight. If i were to carry every possible safety item that might mitigate pain, I'd need a bigger plane.
We all take calculated risks. Our sport is one big calculated risk.
Some days you're the bug and some days you're the windshield.

bigrenna wrote:"I witnessed a 182 hit a tree on final and pile into a parking lot. Being a firefighter and seeing this, I can tell you for certain that nomex or any other type of clothing will do nothing for you. When the 182 impacted the ground, the fire/explosion was instantaneous."

True, to a point. However your argument is a bit flawed. It's like saying the seat belt in your car is useless because it wont save you when you drive off the Golden Gate Bridge. Nomex is not meant to protect you from a catastrophic engulfment.

(As a medic) I've seen burns from quick explosions and have to say that when you witness the delineation on flesh between exposed skin and even a thin cotton shirt, you can make the easy argument that the more protection the better. Certainly one may be too cheap or too cool to get all geeked out on that stuff, and certainly it will never happen to you... But if there is even a .01% chance I might not have to deal with years of reconstructive and grafts, I might just take a chance by looking like a dink on the flight line. Just a thought.

So do you wear Nomex when you drive? The chances of a car fire are just as high if not higher. The recent GM recall is case in point.
Why is it imperative that we fully protect ourselves in a plane but not our cars?
BTW, I always wear my seatbelt even though I never drive over the Golden Gate bridge.

I've never understood the compulsion to give people shit for choosing to wear safety gear. I started wearing a ski helmet relatively early, and it has saved my melon from a couple of hard hits. It never ceased to amaze me how many people took it upon themselves to make a point to me of how unnecessary they thought it was. Times have changed, and now it's virtually standard issue on the slopes.

Personally, I don't give a damn whether anybody else chooses to wear Nomex (or helmets, or shoulder harnesses, or parachutes) or not. For those who do, however, I would never be so presumptuous as to try and dissuade them from doing so. If the naysayers need to be right, then fine--you're right. Statistically speaking, there is a very low likelihood any of us will ever have to use our safety gear, or that it will save us even if we do. So what? Let us be overly-cautious. Let us waste our hard-earned money on safety gear if it makes us feel better. Let us make our own assessment of the risks and benefits, and come to our own conclusions.

I know this is the internet, where everybody has an opinion about everything. I'm not trying to talk anybody else into being more cautious than they want to be but, personally, I can't imagine trying to talk somebody out of it.

Rant over.