With the 2016 flying season fast approaching, I thought it would be a good time to start a this thread on backcountry radio procedures and etiquette. With dozens of strips all using 122.9 and lots of planes in the air, efficient radio calls increase safety and benefit everyone. They differ from the FAR AIM and are even more efficient. There is no written standard that I’m aware of; I think this has evolved over time and seems to work well. These are a few examples of more common radio calls used in the backcountry. I’m sure others will add to this:

Position Reports:
Acceped : 23N Landmark for Johnson Creek 8.5
Discouraged : Backcountry traffic N6523N is over Landmark Northbound landing at Johnson Creek eight thousand five hundred feet

Approaching to Land
Accepted : Johnson Creek 23N 5 South for left downwind 17 Johnson Creek 6.5
Discouraged : Johnson Creek traffic this is N6523N inbound from the South about 5 miles out for Landing at Johnson Creek. I’ll enter a left downwind for 17 I’m currently at six thousand five hundred feet, Johnson Creek traffic.

It is also becoming common to use a visual descriptor such as "white high wing" instead of the abbreviated call sign when near or in the traffic pattern: "Johnson Creek white-high-wing is left downwind 17 Johnson Creek"

There are numerous landmarks used for position reports besides just airports. Fire lookouts, prominent mountains, and frequently used passes are also commonly used reporting points making it difficult to know where someone is, unless you know where these places are. The Idaho Division of Aeronautics published an Idaho Aeronautical Chart in 2009 that is still available through the Division and is also sold by the Johnson Creek care taker. There are other outlets as well. This chart contains many of the reporting points commonly used.

https://itd.idaho.gov/aero/Rudder%20Flutter/2009/RF_Spring_2009_v3.pdf

Nothing screams "greenhorn" (among other things ) louder than hearing someones life story over the radio. Not to mention how it affects safety when others are needing to make calls.

BR

Good stuff. Timely and important post.

Greg Swingle has a good visual on the importance of this at about minute 6:30.

https://vimeo.com/78356287

Here is a link to another interesting video on radio etiquette.

The beginning is basically how to set up and use a handheld to record traffic, but after the intro the actual radio calls get interesting.

I have always wondered how much "real way in the Backcountry operations" differed from basic non-towered venues, and landing where there is no strip at all I suppose has a character all its own.

Personally I like: "Blue/white Cessna Landmark for Johnson Creek 8.5"

I'm not a cessna, but now people know they are looking for a blue and white high wing aircraft as opposed to some tail number which provides no real info. Be brief. Be brilliant. Be gone. Good topic

Tail numbers have no place in communications at non towered airports, whether in the Idaho back country or in the middle of Minnesota. A brief descriptor of your airplane is all that's needed. "Green and white high wing", Blue and white Cherokee", white and red cub, etc is all that's needed at non controlled airports. If you're close enough for me to read your tail number, thus knowing that it's you talking, we have more serious problems than position reporting.

And, PLEASE don't use the CTAF frequency for chit chat. Two years ago at JC, right in the midst of the biggest fly in of the year, a certain retired airline pilot decided to use the CTAF to welcome a fellow aviator to the Idaho back country......In the meantime, several of us were in the pattern at JC, and unable to communicate with each other, as this gent babbled on endlessly about the wonders of this part of the world.

I entered the pattern, flew the recommended pattern, landed, taxied in, and parked and he was still babbling, and nobody else was able to get a word in edgewise.

Keep it succinct and to the point, and describe your plane.

good Communication discipline is golden at non towered airports.

MTV

mtv wrote:Tail numbers have no place in communications at non towered airports, whether in the Idaho back country or in the middle of Minnesota. A brief descriptor of your airplane is all that's needed. "Green and white high wing", Blue and white Cherokee", white and red cub, etc is all that's needed at non controlled airports. If you're close enough for me to read your tail number, thus knowing that it's you talking, we have more serious problems than position reporting.
MTV

I wish more people would get this. I always just say Cessna 170 (if I know there's another 170 in the area, pretty rare, I'll add my color). Some of the local instructors at my airport give me crap about it but I could care less. I'd much rather know the type of aircraft to look for than the tail number, that tells me nothing.

Unless I'm in the pattern or on the ground, I don't really like being close enough to other airplanes to tell what color they are. In fact it's easier for me to keep track of 2 or 3 numbers/letters combinations than more descriptive indicators. I want to know how many planes there are and where, and to that, the discrete IDs are fine.

Timberwolf wrote:Personally I like: "Blue/white Cessna Landmark for Johnson Creek 8.5"
I'm not a cessna, but now people know they are looking for a blue and white high wing aircraft as opposed to some tail number which provides no real info. Be brief. Be brilliant. Be gone. Good topic

x 2.
I've had people rag on me for using "bue & white Skywagon" instead of my tail number, I tell them that it they can actually read my 3" numbers they're too fucking close!

If everyone turned off their radio there would be a lot more looking around. Might work.

When there is so much yakking on the radio in the Idaho hills that etiquette and style become a big deal, it is my cue to find somewhere quieter.

AKclimber wrote:Unless I'm in the pattern or on the ground, I don't really like being close enough to other airplanes to tell what color they are. In fact it's easier for me to keep track of 2 or 3 numbers/letters combinations than more descriptive indicators. I want to know how many planes there are and where, and to that, the discrete IDs are fine.

I go back and forth on this. I agree that when you're not within visual range, and you're constructing the picture of traffic in your mind, the discrete N-numbers can help if they're only the last 3. Especially if 3 or 4 Cessnas are calling in. "Skywagon" or "Skyhawk" or "Stationair" helps too.

Ultimately I think visual identification of the aircraft is less important than helping people formulate the picture of the area traffic in their minds with unique and easy to remember identifiers on the radio.

I also go back and forth about landmarks (not "Landmark" airstrip) being used for position reports instead of just mileage out. A lot of newbie to the area may not know a landmark or reference unless it's on the chart, which Landmark is. But it seems like everywhere I visit people will reference something that requires local knowledge and leaves the transients scratching their head.

I'd caution about being too efficient to the point of ambiguity in your radio calls. "8.5" miles out or "8.5" as an abbreviation for 8,500 MSL? Which is it? There's a reason our phraseology is the way it is, and I think convention can be adhered to without being long winded.

The "backcountry traffic" thing kinda bugs me too. If you're above the ridgelines in the Frank Church, your transmissions can be heard 50 miles away. If I'm at Big Creek and I hear "Johnson Creek traffic" I know I can disregard and devote more CPU to the task at hand, whereas if I hear "Big Creek traffic" then I know to sit up straight. I suppose it's a good habit for some of the corridors of travel between the various strips, but then again just hugging your side of the canyon is better than talking on the radio.

I certainly agree with the spirit of this thread though: be succinct.

/a little opinion

Trim Tab wrote:When there is so much yakking on the radio in the Idaho hills that etiquette and style become a big deal, it is my cue to find somewhere quieter.

Yes. Picked the wrong weekend.

.
ZZZ wrote:
I go back and forth on this. I agree that when you're not within visual range, and you're constructing the picture of traffic in your mind, the discrete N-numbers can help if they're only the last 3. Especially if 3 or 4 Cessnas are calling in. "Skywagon" or "Skyhawk" or "Stationair" helps too.

It is a little confusing to me at times because there are non-towered airports here in Virginia that are located within the Washington, DC SFRA and tail numbers are always communicated. Also, one non-towered airport KJYO in Leesburg has over 100,000 flight operations a year, and it seems the three flight schools there all have boatloads of all white Cessna 172s for training.

So maybe every now and then communicating with tail numbers at non-towered airfields is okay.

KJYO Airport Operational Statistics ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/KJYO )

.
Aircraft based on the field: 242
Single engine airplanes: 196
Multi engine airplanes: 32
Jet airplanes: 8
Helicopters: 6

Aircraft operations: avg 316/day *
85% local general aviation
11% transient general aviation
2% air taxi
1% military
* for 12-month period ending 31 December 2014

GPS has opened up precise reporting and visualization of positions in unknown areas, which makes it easier for some. At my airport you'll hear, "Over the cheesecake factory" for a landmark, and it's seems to be a secret where that is, as anyone new inbound is going "Huh?" Most of the time I'm not a fan of that, unless it's posted. If I hear someone say " inbound 4 1/2 to the north at 3,500", I know instantly.

Also the words "inbound..to..at.." are crucial to some, as your sub conscience mind knows these are trigger words for important info to follow, and "preps" you, so to speak. Watch professionals in whatever profession where this is constant radio traffic, and words such as these perk their ears up and cause much more focused attention. Sometimes just numbers can get lost or confused and taken in the wrong context.

It's a good post to bring up this time of year. Keep it short but make it understand able.

I agree with Zane. 6.5 is confusing, are you 6.5 miles out or at 6500? I first read your post as miles out. Is there that much difference between saying "six point five" or "six thousand five hundred"?




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I agree with brevity, and I agree that chattiness is awful, but sometimes being too brief is as bad as being too chatty. The idea is to communicate, which requires both that the speaker has to speak clearly, and that the listener has to understand what was said.

I've never developed the habit of describing my airplane as "red & white high wing", but I think saying "Cessna 39Xray" probably conveys it just as well. My 3" numbers can't be seen from any distance, but I can't see colors from any distance either--I don't know if others can--but I can see if an airplane is a high wing or low wing. The average SE Cessna is a high wing, just like the average Cherokee is a low wing and the average Supercub is a high wing.

To me, the more important item is to accurately describe the location.

Using a prominent landmark might work for some, but for strangers to the area, that's about as useless as tits on the boar. It's the same thing for when IFR traffic describes its position as over BUFFS instead of 5 south of Greeley--if you don't know where BUFFS is, it doesn't say much. Because just about everybody and his brother has a GPS of some sort these days, I suggest that the GPS distance out and cardinal direction from the airstrip, perhaps combined with a physical location, is more useful.

About altitude reporting: I'm not a stickler for using the exact phraseology of the AIM, but reporting altitude as "8.5" isn't nearly as clear as saying "eighty five hundred"--or "eight thousand five hundred".

So if I say, "Johnson Creek traffic, Cessna 39Xray is 16 south over Landmark airstrip at 8500 feet landing Johnson Creek," I think that conveys it a lot clearer than anything much briefer or just saying I'm over Landmark.

Cary

Cary wrote:So if I say, "Johnson Creek traffic, Cessna 39Xray is 16 south over Landmark airstrip at 8500 feet landing Johnson Creek," I think that conveys it a lot clearer than anything much briefer or just saying I'm over Landmark.

Cary

Agree 100%. Came to the same conclusion over the exact same spot after a seasoned backcountry guy chastised me "nicely" for my "airborne confessional".

Bill

If you listen to the commercial operators, you'll pick up on their lingo. They've already reported their position so whats left?, altitude. Makes sense, but maybe the first time you hear it takes a minute to sink in. Some are comfortable with it, others aren't but at least after reading this thread, most here will understand when they hear it. Most of us are weekend or week vacation warriors , but those guys are doing it every day so it helps knowing what to expect.

I agree that distance and direction (vector) is much better than local landmarks. Even worse than people using local landmarks are the IFR guys giving intersection or approach names, like that means anything to VFR traffic who is unfamiliar or transient.

Denali wrote:

Also, one non-towered airport KJYO in Leesburg has over 100,000 flight operations a year, and it seems the three flight schools there all have boatloads of all white Cessna 172s for training.

So maybe every now and then communicating with tail numbers at non-towered airfields is okay.

KJYO Airport Operational Statistics ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/KJYO )

.
Aircraft based on the field: 242
Single engine airplanes: 196
Multi engine airplanes: 32
Jet airplanes: 8
Helicopters: 6

Aircraft operations: avg 316/day *
85% local general aviation
11% transient general aviation
2% air taxi
1% military
* for 12-month period ending 31 December 2014

Yes, and a lot of schools and air taxi operators use FAA approved call signs, instead of tail numbers. Locally, the flight school uses the "Yellowstone" call sign, as in "Yellowstone 28". Go to Grand Forks, ND where UND operates over a hundred training aircraft. They used to use the "Sioux" call sign.....which makes as much sense as train numbers, since all their aircraft wear tail numbers ending in ND.

When I flew FWS aircraft, we operated under the "Interior" call sign.

All these approved call signs are used regularly in class D, C, B and A airspace, as well.

Ever hear an airliner pilot use their tail number?

A simple description of the airplane, along with an ACCURATE position, is the best means of communicating with other aircraft. More than one "White and red High Wing" in the area? Hopefully, their accurate position reports will sort it out.

Few things irritate me more than hearing a pilot report "mid field left downwind", when in fact the airplane is a mile from the airport on the 45 to downwind.....

MTV

Couple a notes and I will taxi back to tie down.

1: Title of post is: Radio Etiquette - Idaho BACKCOUNTRY.

2: Title is NOT: FAA / AIM general radio rules for 'GENERIC' Non Towered Airports.

More later - maybe - While it should be simple - it can be more complicated
and confusing than some might expect.

No - I do not know it all, but I do know of some conditional variations on the theme.

blackrock wrote:Position Reports:
Acceped : 23N Landmark for Johnson Creek 8.5

Like BR said, this is exactly what you will hear on the radio from the commercial guys operating in Idaho.

I'm not a fan of using landmarks only locals know and it is a bit frustrating when flying back there and I don't have a clue where the guy on the radio is. Depending on how busy it is I give regular reports using towns, airports and landmarks listed on the regular sectional.