Cary wrote:
So if I say, "Johnson Creek traffic, Cessna 39Xray is 16 south over Landmark airstrip at 8500 feet landing Johnson Creek," I think that conveys it a lot clearer than anything much briefer or just saying I'm over Landmark.

Cary

Ok, compare:

"Johnson Creek traffic, Cessna 39Xray is 16 south over Landmark airstrip at 8500 feet landing Johnson Creek"

to

"23November Landmark for Johnson Creek 8.5"

Same information, but the second is much more concise. If your flying the backcountry, you should know where Landmark is. There is no reason to include the redundant 16 miles south of JC, that is the point. Keep it brief. The caller is over Landmark for JC. Landmark is the collection point for traffic coming from all 4 directions. A short call gives others the time for a quick response if they are in the same vicinity and doesn't tie up the radio. Who, where, intention - it is all there concisely.

SPEAK CLEARLY AND NOT TO FAST. I have flown often in areas with several float planes, choppers and water bombers operating. At least half the transmissions were heard as ; gobble gobble gook over. These were the local cool pilots. speaking fast and assuming everyone knew who they were. Note that on cop shows the radio alerts to an incoming call with a warble. Proper procedure of 40 years back was to begin a call with the word ATTENTION , then others have a second to become alert . OVER

A couple thoughts, reporting yellow cub during the super cub fly in doesn't help anyone, neither does saying red and white Cessna. The only way to identify your aircraft is with an N number. While it is true that the main objective is just to let people know where you are and for that it doesn't matter what you say as means of identification if a search happens they will be looking for an N number and someone might have heard yours. The main thing is to report over or next to the charted landmarks and if you are going to spend much time back there then learn some of the uncharted ones. Last thing is don't BS on the frequency when it is busy or go off frequency for extended periods with out monitoring.

So, although this is not my monkey and definitely not my circus, I have been reading this thread with a growing sense of amusement.

It would seem to me that you guys have some pretty strong opinions over something that is just not that big of a deal. Whether it is "Michaelson traffic, Blue and white space shuttle, 6.5 miles north of haroldson airport at 8,500 feet inbound runway 24 at michaelson strip" or "Michaelson traffic, N69V 6.5 north from haroldson, 8.5 for michaelson" is really less than a second or two difference of mic time, and convey the same info.

Yeah keep the jibber jabber about the cinnamon rolls at the diner to a minimum, but position calls seem okay. Like MTV demonstrated you don't need to even transmit to land safely. The post on how to avoid sounding like a cherry is funny because I would rather someone sound like a new guy so I know to expect the unexpected a little more.

I have found the identification going away up here more and more especially at busier airports. "Right downwind Seldovia" Sounds counter intuitive but the less info you give the more people are on the lookout for you.

Generally Radio Cops burn up more time on the radio than the folks they are admonishing

Never liked hearing people give altitudes in decimal points. I haven't flown a light plane in the great northwest since the mid '80's so I will lurk and see what works for the more experienced. Planning a trip to Johnson Creek now that I'm retired. Short and sweet has always worked for me on the radio no matter the airplane size.

Whether you are in the backcountry or the LA basin, good radio procedure is essential. And "good" radio procedure is primarily brief, accurate and descriptive.

I learned the "describe your airplane, not the tail number" gig at a small Southern California airport called Santa Paula. It's a VERY busy little airport, in a valley, and one runway. All the locals there use a descriptor rather than tail number, and it works really well. I recall one case where there were seven airplane's in or near the pattern, and there was no issue at all keeping track of them.

But, again, however you choose to identify your aircraft, be concise and accurate. Tell us where you ARE, not where you wish you were......

And, frankly, working with ATC is the same. Too many pilots spend a lot of time trying to get their "airline captain" voices down pat, but don't convey accurate info......and that's what communication is all about......

MTV

Headoutdaplane wrote:If everyone turned off their radio there would be a lot more looking around. Might work.

You might think that.
But in my experience the guys that brag about practicing "see and avoid" are the ones that don't actually do enough of it, so most of the avoidance is being done by everyone else.
IMHO position reports supplement see-and-avoid if done properly.

This discussion reminded me of something an old timer in Alaska told me once: "Tail numbers only matter in accident investigations and enforcement actions by the FAA".

Something to consider.....just saying.

MTV

+1 for speaking clearly and not too fast. I flew by a towered airport yesterday. I listened to the ATIS maybe 15 times and the guy who recorded it was talking so fast I literally only got 10% of it.

I know I'm a southerner - but don't be in so much of a rush that you miss the point of communicatin'! Especially the first part - for which it is vitally important to know to which traffic you are talking - and to repeat it at the end for those of us struggling with oxygen deprivation and didn't understand you the first time.

Brevity is great, but clarity is mo' betta!

And by the way, a large number of pilots do not know that 8.5 means 8,500ft. Just sayin'!

mtv wrote:This discussion reminded me of something an old timer in Alaska told me once: "Tail numbers only matter in accident investigations and enforcement actions by the FAA".

Something to consider.....just saying.

MTV

"Like"

Cary wrote:

So if I say, "Johnson Creek traffic, Cessna 39Xray is 16 south over Landmark airstrip at 8500 feet landing Johnson Creek," I think that conveys it a lot clearer than anything much briefer or just saying I'm over Landmark.

Cary


Ok, compare:

"Johnson Creek traffic, Cessna 39Xray is 16 south over Landmark airstrip at 8500 feet landing Johnson Creek"

to

"23November Landmark for Johnson Creek 8.5"

Same information, but the second is much more concise. If your flying the backcountry, you should know where Landmark is. There is no reason to include the redundant 16 miles south of JC, that is the point. Keep it brief. The caller is over Landmark for JC. Landmark is the collection point for traffic coming from all 4 directions. A short call gives others the time for a quick response if they are in the same vicinity and doesn't tie up the radio. Who, where, intention - it is all there concisely.

I don't see much difference between these two communications. The content is what matters, as many have pointed out, and the efficiency that you deliver it with.

Further: What about those without radios? They exist and in the back country too. Also: There are many pilots who have never flown to a controlled field or had much reason to talk on the radio? They might never read this forum and show up anyway. You still need to fly like there are people out there who are not communicating with a radio and while I agree with the intended message of the poster in principal, I think that the convention of Cary's is appropriate and I also think it's okay to trim it down even further if you can do it so that there are no ambiguities (like Z pointed out) such as the "8.5? alt or distance?". However, what's the point of veritable VHF Eubonics? Inbound for JC Yo, Peace out.

If you arrive at JC and turn off the radio, you might actually be more aware of the traffic around you if all you hear is a flood of jargon and stomped on transmissions. I think that's what frustrates Black Rock and others.

blackrock wrote:If you listen to the commercial operators, you'll pick up on their lingo. They've already reported their position so whats left?, altitude. Makes sense, but maybe the first time you hear it takes a minute to sink in. Some are comfortable with it, others aren't but at least after reading this thread, most here will understand when they hear it.

Listening to 133.4 I hear the airliners report altitude as one, five thousand (15,000 feet)
or two, five thousand (25,000 feet). So going with the example altitude of 8,500 feet you would radio that as eight, five hundred. Not eight point five.

Myself, I find idea of someone saying the are at eight point five to be... confusing,
saying you are at eight, five hundred is odd but not difficult to figure out what your saying.

Just some ground pounder, sky watcher's opinion.

soyAnarchisto wrote:+1 for speaking clearly and not too fast. I flew by a towered airport yesterday. I listened to the ATIS maybe 15 times and the guy who recorded it was talking so fast I literally only got 10% of it.

I know I'm a southerner - but don't be in so much of a rush that you miss the point of communicatin'! Especially the first part - for which it is vitally important to know to which traffic you are talking - and to repeat it at the end for those of us struggling with oxygen deprivation and didn't understand you the first time.

Brevity is great, but clarity is mo' betta!

And by the way, a large number of pilots do not know that 8.5 means 8,500ft. Just sayin'!

Early when I was first learning to fly at the Elmendorf Aeroclub, I had just cranked up the 150 and turned on the radio, when another student called Ground for taxi instructions. He rattled it off so quickly that I couldn't understand him. I commented that I hoped someday I could get over my mic-fright and talk like that. My instructor said, "That's ridiculous--nobody can understand him." What he said was emphasized when Ground called back, "aircraft calling ground, say again request." Same rattling off machine-gun style. Ground, "aircraft calling ground, either say it slower and more clearly, or you're not going anywhere."

Fast forward to 2005, a week after Hurricane Katrina. I'd volunteered to take a HSEATS flight to Killeen, TX, to pick up a girl whose family had been air-evaq'd to Denver from New Orleans, while she'd been visiting relatives in Killeen. In a 172, even my hot rod version, it's a long flight from Fort Collins to Killeen to Denver, like in 11 hours flight time at that point, plus time on the ground for fuel once down, at Killeen, and again on the way back, plus some eating time at Killeen. It was about 11 p.m. after off-loading my passenger, her dog, and all of her belongings, and I was tired. At that hour, there weren't any other airplanes coming in or going out.

I had an IFR flight plan filed, so I called KAPA Clearance to get my clearance, and the lady rattled it off way too fast. I caught a couple of things, so I said, "Cessna xxxxx is cleared to Fort Collins, say again everything after Fort Collins." Again she rattled off the whole clearance really fast, and I caught a couple more things. This time, I said "Cessna xxxxx. Look, I'm really tired, I've been flying all day, and I can't write as fast as you talk. Let's--try--it--again--really--really--slowly." She laughed and read it back very slowly, and this time I caught everything. Then I switched to Ground, and it was the same lady. She read the taxi instructions very slowly, too, and then said, "Is that slow enough for you?" "Yes ma'am" and then I repeated the taxi instructions. When I was ready to take off, I switched to Tower, and it was still her. Same slow pace clearing me to take off, and with no one else in the area, I said, "Cessna xxxxx is cleared for take off, rolling, and thank you for accommodating my feeble mind." When she told me to contact Departure, same slow pace. I wished her a good night and switched to Departure.

Machine gun rates tend to require too much repetition. It's better to be able to say it a bit slower and clearer, and maybe only once, than to have to repeat several times at a faster clip.

Cary

Hmm.. lots of good info here. I'll add my .2 cents. Reading this it appears the main goal is to keep it short, yet still giving out the needed info. Personally I don't much like simply hearing the "8.5" thing without knowing what that 8.5 refers to. Adding the single word "miles" or the word "thousand" would make it very clear. Another pet peeve of mine is hearing traffic that is obviously familiar with the local surroundings giving position reports like.... "Cessna 34Foxtrot, over Clyde's Trailer Park, landing ______" . If you want to use a familiar landmark that probably most will know of, thats fine, but for the out of towner that's just coming in to the area for the first time, the inclusion of "6 miles north" would be prudent. A lot of my flying is all around the San Juan Islands in WA State with countless geographical landmarks. I know most of the landmarks, but still not all of them. And I am sure the first time visitor doesn't know all the landmarks w/names. With GPS it is a snap to announce your direction and miles out. If you want to throw in a landmark (ex; Barker Reef) for further clarification, fine. On the use of tail numbers with type, verses color and type? A whole lot of the aircraft we need to be concerned with happen to be Cessna's, and most of those Cessna's are predominantly white. The use of "model type" would at least help to differentiate one Cessna from another on the radio. Visually, a 172 looks the same as a 182 from a distance. It probably doesn't matter that much if traffic is light. "White Skyhawk" will probably suffice. If there are many targets coming in it could get a bit confusing if all we're hearing is white this and white that. Be flexible according to the current situation. If I hear someone announce "white Skyhawk 6 miles south..." I will make my announcement distinct from theirs; "Cessna 65Bravo" 8 miles south". I just think a lot of problems come in because of pilots clicking the mike button before they have really thought through what they want to say; "Eastsound traffic.....Cessna 26Uniform, issssss....uhhhh....over.....uhhh, ....north end of....Blaaaaakely Island, inbound, landing.....straight in for 34....traffic permitting,....correction,...we will fly the downwind forrrrrr.....14. I mean 16. Anybody in the pattern?" (IFR rating tends to clear/clean this up). I guess that was more like my .50 cents.

Aircraft model can also help with regards to sequencing.
A skywagon 10 miles away arrives in the pattern a lot sooner than a 150.

For the folks who argue that there are a lot of white Cessna or yellow cubs out there, please read the REST of the message: That is, be precise and descriptive on your location.

If I call "white and red cub left downwind landing south Johnson creek" you should then look at that spot.....if there's a white and red airplane there, it's probably me, or you're about to witness a mid air.

It's a two part harmony, guys....one part is the airplanes "name", the other is PRECISE location info.

Now, if I hear three different airplanes, all reporting at the same spot, I'm just not going anywhere near there, whether they're using tail numbers or color and type.

But, there is no way that a tail number helps you visually identify an airplane, while color and type may..... Someone calls and says "Cessna 23N is left downwind Johnson Creek". Could be a 150, a Caravan or a Citation.

I look at the downwind midfield and I see two airplanes close to the midfield point, one on the 45. One's a high wing, other is a low wing. Well, that high wing is obviously my Cessna, right? Except in this case 23N is actually a Cessna Corvallis....a low wing. Did the tail number help ID the plane? Nope. Color may have, a more precise descriptor may have.

My point is, in the backcountry, tail numbers are pretty useless. If there's a search on, it isn't likely someone will remember the tail number of a call heard in the backcountry heard once.

I flew and instructed at an uncontrolled airport just thirty miles from UND for seven years. Our pattern was a favorite of UND instructors, and we'd often have four or five green and white Cessna in the pattern at once, all using the Souix ... call sign. As long as they gave good position reports, it was no problem keeping track of them.

And when a search starts, what's the primary info given to searchers? Type and color of the missing plane. Yes, tail number too, but that's only needed after they're found.

FWIW

MTV

What drives me crazy is ANYONE (radio DJ, local TV person, other pilots) saying " Oh", when they mean, " zero." Like some TV ads I've seen, " call 800-555121Oh, it's ZERO, NOT OH! Following that, is someone calling out " right-hand downwind for one." Zero one is how to say it, right!?

it's ZERO, NOT OH! Following that, is someone calling out " right-hand downwind for one." Zero one is how to say it, right!?

Correct on the ZERO instead of OH, but the correct number for the runway would be ONE. Not ZERO ONE.

Runways ONE thru NINE, then ONE ZERO, ONE ONE, thru THREE SIX...

In the US at least. ICAO, and I believe some US military airports, will use the leading zero on a single digit runway, but not US civilian airports.

Gump

So I should tell the guys in the Cherokee Cubs practicing towards the end of July "Pissna on Final for Runway 1 go around your water rudders are retracted" and not ".....Runway oh 1......" That will create a stir.

GumpAir wrote:

it's ZERO, NOT OH! Following that, is someone calling out " right-hand downwind for one." Zero one is how to say it, right!?

Correct on the ZERO instead of OH, but the correct number for the runway would be ONE. Not ZERO ONE.

Runways ONE thru NINE, then ONE ZERO, ONE ONE, thru THREE SIX...

In the US at least. ICAO, and I believe some US military airports, will use the leading zero on a single digit runway, but not US civilian airports.

Gump

I learned to fly in the military, but single digit runways are always "zero X" (not "oh," that's not proper phonetics) for me. It's such a habit now I'd have to try hard to break it.

It makes sense to me because it sounds complete. When I hear someone just say "X," unless I was paying very close attention to the call I wonder if I missed part of it. We run up to 5 radios simultaneously, so it's important to be explicit, even if that means adding a pair of syllables. Brevity always loses to explicitness.

I feel the same way when I fly in an unfamiliar area and pilots are using local "shorthand" on the radio.