Zzz, bingo.... the disease is in the individuals. Individuals that are going to do the same to themselves (or one of us) in another game, another location, or with another tool, if we take any or all of those away.

akschu wrote:

Rob wrote:Having said all that, I despise the talking heads that seek to shut them down even more. What gave that talking head the right to look at the ass clowns down his nose? Were it me I'd say turn it up a notch... Mother Nature will sort it out, and people will learn what we need in place to turn a circus into a sanctioned event, a goat rope into a safe (as can be) competition. After all, at some point road racing was really on a road... We'd live in a pretty boring place were it not for the fools that outlived the foolishness that evolved into better ways.

There is a distinction between people looking down their nose and having 5-6 working brain cells that clearly point to a future accident that will be the basis for negative attention and regulation of what we enjoy doing.

If it was as simple as retroactive birth control, then agreed, but it isn't that simple. The sanctioning body of their sport isn't in the business of selling tickets and entertaining, rather, it's controlled by the federal government, and pretty frequently acts like GA is in it's way.

Shoeman, I think we agree on so much, we just see different paths for the cure. I haven't as many brain cells left as I'd like, but I will do my best to add to my thoughts before.

First of all, this stuff really is simple, but it takes someone with the brass to say... no fellas, this isn't right... as Zzz alluded to.

Second of all, that someone needn't and shouldn't be the FAA, because then the 'freedoms' everyone keeps alluding to (which is a misnomer here, Freedoms would infer an act with even less constraints than a Right. Flight is a Privilege... and one we should strive to keep) get trampled.

Lastly, the FAA is by no means the sanctioning body of these events... They are governing them by default as the sanctioning body of Flying. A Sanctioning body for these events would be a commission, association, or entity established of and by the people of these events in approval, and in concert with the FAA. A group such as The Reno Air Racing Association, a group such as the NAAA, such as many successful others who have been established with the purpose of promoting and policing their own ranks.

The NAAA was tasked with forming a commission in 1982 (NAAREF) for exactly these reason. With programs like the PAASS program they were able to keep the federal monkey off their back while promoting safety and education from within. Win - Win and this is from a group who could easily be described as the original 'flying cowboys' but has worked hard to shed that moniker and certainly a group who has burned some brain cells.

This stuff isn't rocket science, it really doesn't even qualify as airplane science... it's stuff that you'd learn in business 101. If business 101 actually cared about the business and the people.

Banning 'xyz' flying will be tantamount to banning black guns.... people will paint them tan and life will go on. If anyone agrees with that, then the cries for loss of life ring hollow, because you know they'll just move on to the next venue.

Belittling cowabunga type pilots will net the same results. It doesn't work with kids... and like it or not we're all just chronologically older kids. I'll admit it, most of my things winged are just big toys. If history is any indicator, educating will yield infinitely better results. I'll cite an example;
The Clevland air races...
What could go wrong?

Well in 1949 a crash with a fall for the pilot and two bystanders.... and that ended that. (for another 15 +/- years)
Reno on the other hand was born with a sanctioning body, to qualify pilots, promote safety, and promote the sport... Why because they learned from Cleveland.... and one of those fine men was one who clinically was short a brain cell or two... Bob Hoover.

No sir... I'm not long on brain matter enough to know who first perfected the 'Divide and Conquer', scholarly types would have you believe that was Julius Caesar, but surely that's horseshit. Every predator I have ever arrowed or leaded had that tactic engrained in their genetics, which certainly predates Caser, never the less, as much as I don't care for the freak shows, hoping for them to be regulated out of existence is tantamount to giving the people who'd just as soon see all GA gone another chunk of fodder to launch at the rest of us.

Soy... ya man... wires.... bad juju...It was their bad for promoting, and actually executing it that way. My point way it really wasn't hype worthy as a harrowing death defying act. I'd also contend that many of us would have landed or left under a wire at some point in our flying careers for the fun of it. So the whole shame on you kind of smacks as do as I say not as I do. There's a good chance that I know of several in these inteweb pages that have done the same just out bombing around the boonies... but now it's in a 'contest' and it's absolute media worthy

Take care, Rob

Interesting, I think I see your point now, and agree, there is some overlap....

If there was a sanctioning body, and if flying from strip to strip as fast as possible became an extension of every other form of flying for entertainment (aerobatics, stunts, racing, etc), and there were smart people with perhaps 10-11 brain cells vetting qualifications, then sure, go for it, I don't care.

The problem though; is that this appears to be nothing more than self organized youtube stunt for clicks, and we all know where that goes.

I think that this all comes down to “is the choice to ignore a speed buffer (1.3 Vso) for something much slower a reasonable choice for an entire competition?”

I know that in my short flying life I have found myself below my chosen approach speed a couple of times, and shaken myself. Cockpit distractions, tiredness, complacency, just being a little off. Add wake turbulence or gusting conditions and this is inevitable as the number of these competitions explodes and lower time pilots want to compete.

The question is whether it’s worth the loss of anyone? I have climbed and sailed and enjoyed motorsport. Lost friends in all of them. The +50 comment was spot on, I have changed and it’s not worth it for me now. Maybe for others.

Obviously a tragic loss of a guy who seems to be widely loved. So sorry for his family.

Honestly this "New event" should be treated and regulated like the reno air races and pilots need to be licensed similar to an airshow pilot. Definitely not something a private pilot should be doing after taking a weekend training course. Even this stol drag - this is airshow stuff, not "skills honing". Very entertaining to the public, simply an exhibition put on by specially training, tested and specifically licensed "show pilots" - NOT WEEKEND WARRIORS

As said, this is not comparable to motocross whatsoever. Where they break an arm, these guy simply die in crumpled ball of aluminum. Where they might break their back, these guys kill themselves plus a crowd of spectators.

I laugh at the mention of "This is what GA needs" LOL. Lots of kids these days have no real interest in getting a drivers license, you don't get them interested in nascar and drag racing to try to convince them to take a drivers test....

akschu wrote:The problem though; is that this appears to be nothing more than self organized youtube stunt for clicks, and we all know where that goes.

Agreed 100%....

I just hope whoever participates in giving them the nudge to extinction executes it with some foresight.

And again just to be clear, it really wouldn't affect my morning coffee if that entire scene just flipped off like a light switch.

daed.... I'm lost. I thought the conversation was to stimulate dialogue about the off road flying click bait culture.
Debates about flying techniques are contact's arena.
At 50++ I find myself flying with more thoughtfulness, but as I type this I am waiting on the inversion to lift so I can climb into a plane that just a few days ago I was helping someone get familiar with. And when they asked me for approach speeds, not only did I struggle to come up with something intelligent, but I honestly couldn't even remember where the speedometer was in that one...

You take one path for your buffer, I take another...

Mark,
Agreed on so much, with the exception of your die in a crumpled ball part.
Travel on any 2 lane road today, and if you have the opportunity to pass an oncoming semi truck, you will pass at an energy level that exceeds that of these falling stol'ers. If that trucker is texting, you will experience that crumpled ball... don't give the stol'ers the attention they are seeking... like a kid throwing a tantrum. Give them the tools to grow up.

Peace out... or whatever those under 50 say now days.

Rob

Rob wrote: Peace out... or whatever those under 50 say now days.

I'm turning 45ACP this year, so I'm for sure qualified to comment:

I think the current thing is to say full stop, then mic drop. Whatever maximizes the clicks....

I’ve got a lot of feelings on this one but can’t articulate most of them without writing a book so I’ll stick to my wheelhouse.

The “STOLCross” video made me cringe. The main thing is my day job is designing powerlines like the ones being used as airplane hurdles and limbo poles here. I know ag pilots fly under and near them all the time, I’ve had to design a rebuild after a plane hit one a while ago. So – while I understand and respect what the ag folks do(and heck, I spend 50 hours a year as a helicopter passenger examining them from 20 foot away), please don’t get that close to wires for fun. They’re unforgiving, and old copper and shield wire are darn near invisible.

From a flying standpoint, I guess it looks cool and exciting but there’s enough there that’s on the edge of the envelope that I’m not sure promoting this event without some sort of oversight is a good thing. Red Bull air race, Reno air races, and heck even STOL Drag have sanctioning bodies/FAA cooperation/training requirements. This Stol Cross just looks reckless. Not the attention I want to see on backcountry GA.
Less of that, more of this(but with more younger people - no offense McSpadden and Goulian)

Great video.

“Put my pride aside, start at the bottom and work my way up”…….

“Stay on the ground, live to fly another day”…..

DreadPirateWill wrote:I’ve got a lot of feelings on this one but can’t articulate most of them without writing a book so I’ll stick to my wheelhouse.

The “STOLCross” video made me cringe. The main thing is my day job is designing powerlines like the ones being used as airplane hurdles and limbo poles here. I know ag pilots fly under and near them all the time, I’ve had to design a rebuild after a plane hit one a while ago. So – while I understand and respect what the ag folks do(and heck, I spend 50 hours a year as a helicopter passenger examining them from 20 foot away), please don’t get that close to wires for fun. They’re unforgiving, and old copper and shield wire are darn near invisible.

From a flying standpoint, I guess it looks cool and exciting but there’s enough there that’s on the edge of the envelope that I’m not sure promoting this event without some sort of oversight is a good thing. Red Bull air race, Reno air races, and heck even STOL Drag have sanctioning bodies/FAA cooperation/training requirements. This Stol Cross just looks reckless. Not the attention I want to see on backcountry GA.
Less of that, more of this(but with more younger people - no offense McSpadden and Goulian)

That really is a fantastic video. Good for Michael Gulian and Richard McSpadden. I had the privilege of flying some with Richard here in SW Montana last summer, and was very impressed with his attitude. He very much exhibited exactly what Michael talks about here. And, fyi, among many other flying experiences, Richard led the Thunderbirds during his last assignment in the AF. A very humble aviator, learning to operate in different environs.

MTV

I am glad that McSpadden is getting involved, Mike. He has the political clout to bring the safe maneuvering flight techniques involved in Backcountry, STOL, and such to the normal flight training program. We in crop dusting were on the wrong side of the tracks, politically, until Air Tractor became a million dollar jet. Yet, the technique to prevent low altitude stall fatalities never transferred. Wolfgang first wrote a book about energy management flying, but that was before Practical Test Standards changed normal flying from Stick and Rudder techniques to integrated instruments techniques.

I fear STOL techniques will become considered specialty techniques like Ag. Acceptable on the stinky side of the field like Ag, acceptable in the flying circus environment STOL. Like Rob and others, I have no interest in the circus. My interest is in preaching techniques that can save lives like that of the young C-140 pilot and those considered normal pilots. The energy inefficient and dangerous elevator pull to keep the nose up on the horizon technique is dangerous for all pilots engaged in maneuvering flight. Claiming the pattern is different or that it has the same pitch and bank protection as instrument flying does not help.

Everything will work out fine. STOL is almost at the harmless stage. Soon we will have Tactical-STOL. Tactical-STOL is safe. Tactical-STOL uses the same aircraft with the same mods as STOL competitions the difference is in Tactical-STOL you paint your airplane and all the fancy STOL bits tan or black then safely lock the Tactical-STOL aircraft in a secure underground vault to protect the Tactical-STOL aircraft from getting scratched. No more crashes, everyone is a winner.

Excellent response Zane!

Kurt

Anyone else see the new video of the Rans S6 racing a baja racer? Didn't end well when the racer cut in front of the plane and hooked the gear. Makes a guy scratch his head for sure...