mtv wrote:Yeah, Cherokees.....that's a GREAT comparison.

I once watched a fellow in a Warrior get pure D sideways as he veered off the runway at about fifty knots. Into the grass sideways and I'm thinking that nose gear is coming right off......grass flying off all three tires.

Then one main hit a culvert. Ripped it right off and slew the plane around in a circle, as he nose gear played crack the whip.

Wing was bent, main gear torn off, nose gear was just fine.

Try THAT with your average Cessna nose gear.

When that school switched to Cessnas from Warriors, they killed a 172 nose gear a week.



MTV

Laughing...you got that right! If Piper ever built aluminum high wings Cessna would have really had to step up their game.

Even Cherokee nose gear isn't indestructible:



Cary

The Piper nosewheel is fairly indestructible compared to the delicate 172/182.

I use both the stock nose wheel and an oversize unit. The oversize unit eats up a ton of cruise speed and a little climb rate, and I only put it on for rough trips. The swap only takes an hour extra if I'm already changing the oil, plus an occasional o-ring or two. The oversize strut is shorter than the stock unit. This keeps the nose wheel contact attitude fairly similar in either configuration.

The nose wheel makes a very large difference in handling on sandy strips and rougher strips. The main advantage I've felt is the shock absorbing ability of the larger lower pressure tire. Pump the big one up tight and it feels about the same as the stock tire even though it evens things out better over rough terrain. Soften it up and things really get smoother.

I don't run big tires on the mains. I only have one set of wheels, and the speed loss turns my 182 I to an anemic 172 for speed. I'm landing on strips or driveways, not rock bars, and I find I just don't need anything bigger than 6's or 7's. Because of this, if I were to use a longer strut(which doesn't do any good anyway), I risk dragging the tail.

6's or 7's all the way around for me, and the itty bitty 5" wheel goes up front all winter.

mtv wrote:. It's that first hit and the aft force that can damage your engine mount or firewall.

MTV

Totally disagree!
Unless when you land you land "hitting" the nose wheel into the ground. Then it doesn't matter what size of tire you have.

The most stress comes as you slow down!
When you first touch the nose wheel at a higher speed the tire just touches the tops of the rocks, divots, bumps etc!
When you get a little slower then the tire starts contacting the ground more touching not only the tops of the bumps but all the way through to the bottoms of the bumps also, slamming the strut up, down and aft really hard!

This can be compounded if you need to use the brakes for some reason.

Also if running an 8.50 up front caused all of this mayhem with the nose gear and firewall then why in the world would anyone spend thousands of dollars on their plane to install the fork and nose wheel????

I'm sure there will be lots of operators and individuals in alaska converting their planes back once they hear about this!

That being said, not everyone needs an 8.50 up front. Depends on your mission. A smaller tire will also be easier to turn while taxiiing.
I think the smaller tire option would work out great for some folks here!

My 8.50 nose wheels however, will remain in place!!!!!

TangoFox wrote:I'm sure there will be lots of operators and individuals in alaska converting their planes back once they hear about this! D

Okay, I should have said that first "touch" of the nose wheel. Though in rough stuff, that first "touch" can be hard.....because the thing is moving fast still.

And, most of the folks in Alaska with this mod already use a smaller tire on the nose than on the mains.....accomplished via field approval. And I'd guess that 90% plus of this mod operate in Alaska, where they're working. No reason, I'm sure.

Note one of the issues with the Twin Comanche is that they used all three tires same size. There's an STC to install a smaller nose tire. Same logic, though it is harder to land a Twin Comanche with the nose high, but it can be done.

FWIW, I guess all those guys don't know anything.....

MTV

mtv wrote:

TangoFox wrote:I'm sure there will be lots of operators and individuals in alaska converting their planes back once they hear about this! D

And, most of the folks in Alaska with this mod already use a smaller tire on the nose than on the mains.....accomplished via field approval. And I'd guess that 90% plus of this mod operate in Alaska, where they're working. No reason, I'm sure.


MTV

So are you telling me with a straight face that most people in Alaska are running a field approved smaller tire with the landis fork???

I would say most are running bigger mains but still have an 8.50 nose because it's the biggest nose wheel you can get!
If there was an STC for 26" goodyear nose wheel I would give it a try.

Following your logic why then would you not run a 4.00X4 nose wheel on everything out there it would save nose gear every day???

TangoFox wrote:So are you telling me with a straight face that most people in Alaska are running a field approved smaller tire with the landis fork???

Now you've done it Trent, I foresee sentences - with words in the middle of them CAPITALIZED to make you stand down once and for all - in your future.

This thread has become shit

Jeredp wrote:This thread has become shit

Starting to get too personal and less informational.

Cary

Apparantly Airglass penciled this out and found a worthwhile number of clients wanting a smaller tire up front. I'm going for the placebo effect nyself, theorizing that keeping my nosewheel and connected wimpy firewall attachment point off the surface coming, going and in a crosswind gives me my best chance of avoiding a devastating and depreciating firewall replacement on my Skylane. Even if my theory is wrong, I still win, because I'm blundering ahead with confidence, Just like my friends rolling alfalfa fields on bush tires- an ounce of image is worth a pound of performance anyday if you're sure of yourself!

Nosedragger wrote:an ounce of image is worth a pound of performance anyday if you're sure of yourself!

That's why we quickly announce that we are pilots at any gathering of two or more people, right?

Cary

I'm not going to get in the middle of arguments here. But, all planes are different and the operator makes a huge difference in what works best for the plane and making the right landings.

I had 850's all around on my 182 and worked perfect for ME. Because I had it drilled in my brain how expensive a firewall repair can cost, I learned and practice to land slow and nose high and in many cases keeping the nose wheel off the ground as long as I could. Never had an issue no matter what my weight was.

58Skylane wrote:

That's a great pic of your Skylane!

CapnMike wrote:

58Skylane wrote:

That's a great pic of your Skylane!

Thanks Mike! It's been one week since I sold it and I'm already regretting it!!

I'm not sure this link will work. But here's a video of me landing at Fullerton, CA. Mains touch first then nose wheel. Not hard to accomplish every time with lot's of practice.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1537957891930&l=40316767509686189

TangoFox wrote:

mtv wrote:

TangoFox wrote:I'm sure there will be lots of operators and individuals in alaska converting their planes back once they hear about this! D

And, most of the folks in Alaska with this mod already use a smaller tire on the nose than on the mains.....accomplished via field approval. And I'd guess that 90% plus of this mod operate in Alaska, where they're working. No reason, I'm sure.


MTV

So are you telling me with a straight face that most people in Alaska are running a field approved smaller tire with the landis fork???

I would say most are running bigger mains but still have an 8.50 nose because it's the biggest nose wheel you can get!
If there was an STC for 26" goodyear nose wheel I would give it a try.

Following your logic why then would you not run a 4.00X4 nose wheel on everything out there it would save nose gear every day???

Apparently, you failed to actually read my comments. That's fine, do as you will.

Next time you see one of those Cessna's with 8.50 x 10s on the mains and an 8.50 x 6 on the nose, consider that this implies the nose tire is in fact a smaller size than the mains, which is my point.

And yes it is possible to land mains first with the nose wheel held off.

If you do so, I strongly suggest that you install a tail skid under your aft fuselage, because at some point you might get just a bit too enthusistic holding that nose wheel off, and push your tail cone up into your rudder.

Oh, I know.....you're such an ace you'd never do that. I watched a 25,000 hour air taxi pilot do so, which convinced me that I was capable of doing so.

Nobody on here is that clumsy, however...

Whatever suits you is fine with me...

MTV

mtv wrote:

TangoFox wrote:The smaller tire will touch at a lower angle of attack but there is actually less stress on the nose gear with a bigger tire!
The increased diameter will roll over bumps and rocks easier while taxiing, and if the nose is higher while in a 3 point attitude the CG shifts rearward, decreasing the weight on the nose gear.

With the 8.50 you need to learn to land a little more nose high.
Once you are used to it it's not a big deal.

But, with 8.50 on all three, the plane hits critical AOA right about the time all three are touching. That is, when empty. Loaded, it's not an issue, and as you say, with some practice, you can land on th mains but when empty, that nose is going to touch right away.

With the smaller nose tire, it's easy to hold the nose off as the plane slows some.

That significantly reduces stresses on the nose. In a 206, that makes life easier for your engine mount. In a 182/172, it makes life easier on your firewall.

That means less $$$$ down the road unless you are REALLY careful....and maybe lucky as well.

MTV

Mike is right on the money. I fly lots of 207s with 8.50s on the mains and the ones with 8.50s on the nose just plain suck. For precisely the reason he described. Also, the 8.50 on the nose raises the cowling higher, and when a mechanic has overcharged the nose strut (raising the cowling even more) you can't see anything in front of you. Under those conditions you feel like you're taxiing a Stearman.

Ha Ha! Keeps ya tailwheel current. Vis over the nose is much better in a 180/185 than a Sled.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Ha Ha! Keeps ya tailwheel current. Vis over the nose is much better in a 180/185 than a Sled.

Gump

Give me any tri-gear plane with 850's all around and I'll show you how to do it right!!

mtv wrote:
Apparently, you failed to actually read my comments. That's fine, do as you will.

Next time you see one of those Cessna's with 8.50 x 10s on the mains and an 8.50 x 6 on the nose, consider that this implies the nose tire is in fact a smaller size than the mains, which is my point.

And yes it is possible to land mains first with the nose wheel held off.

If you do so, I strongly suggest that you install a tail skid under your aft fuselage, because at some point you might get just a bit too enthusistic holding that nose wheel off, and push your tail cone up into your rudder.

Oh, I know.....you're such an ace you'd never do that. I watched a 25,000 hour air taxi pilot do so, which convinced me that I was capable of doing so.

Nobody on here is that clumsy, however...

Whatever suits you is fine with me...

MTV

No Mike I read your comments!

Now you have changed your argument from running a smaller than originally specified in the STC 8.50X6 nose wheel. To running bigger mains. 8.50x10 or even 29's???
Also now your argument is that you have to run a tail skid???
Changed from the 8.50 being hard on your firewall??

Maybe you didn't read the topic!

The whole point of the FM revision is that now you can use smaller than 8.50x6 on the nose. NOT larger than 8.50's on the mains!


I said that in my opinion the 8.50 was less stressful on the nose gear than a smaller tire.
I stand by that.
On smooth surfaces it doesn't matter but on the rough surfaces it matters a lot!

Not everyone needs the 8.50 on the nose. That is up to the individual to decide what suits his/her mission the best. If a 7.00 or 8.00 is desired then the STC revision opens up new possibilities for owners. That's great!
The smaller tire is lighter, steers easier especially on pavement and is cheaper!


I run an 8.50x6 on the nose and 8.50 X10's on my 205 and I run 29's on my 207.
The reason I use the bigger mains is for more flotation on the sand and to smooth out the roughness a little.

If the 8.50x10's or the 29's were not available I would be running 8.50x6's all the way around.

People look to this site to get information about flying, maintenance, mods etc.
Posting that if someone runs 8.50's all the way around they will damage their nose gear or their tail cone....
Well that is simply untrue!