Looking through the logs of a 185 that was repaired by a reputable shop in Canada in the late 90s. The log pages and 337s (or Canadian equivalent?) describe the repairs in great detail but the damage and repairs to the airframe were extensive, like replacement Cessna parts lists requiring multiple pages. It’s a low time airframe, but a good example of how TTAF means little compared to nature of operation.

How much does this actually affect value? I imagine quality of workmanship is everything. Is it a rabbit hole worth going down at the right price? If I sink money into the airplane, will the damage and repairs always haunt its value?

I am new to this whole airplane game compared to most on here. My opinion however is that is like the value of most things. Its worth what somewhat will pay for it. If this is a real scenario on a plane youre looking at buying it seems like its giving you some pause by the way you ask the question. My guess is that yorue fine with the repairs and they wouldnt stop you from owning or more importantly flying the plane. My guess is that your worried youll get hosed in a resale. The absolute truth is the plane is worth what someone will pay for it. If you think its overpriced for the damage offer less. If youre not comfortable with the price walk.

I think their are certain planes that are worth adding money to in the long term because their type doesnt have the same ceiling on them that others do. I currently fly a cessna 205 and I wouldnt sink a ton of money into restoration or improvements into it because I think this type has a cap on resale. If it was an early 206 I think the cap is higher.. I am in a situation where if I want most major modes (auto pilot, big avionics upgrade, larger motor, etc) I am likely planning on sell and getting something different. That being said in the mean time I am loving flying the plane and the fact that it allows me to take my family of 5 places. I think a 185 has an incredibly high ceiling when it comes to value. Think of all the cubs flying around that are pretty much only their original name plates. If the work was done right its likely better than when it left the factory.

Zane,

A 185 sounds like a great way to continue to wish you were flying, only with greater output of funds.....Why would you even want a 185?

But, to your question, I once owned a 66 R model 180, floats, wheels and skis. Fairly high time engine, and 6600 hours. It had an accident history, back four or five hundred hours, a ground loop. Repairs were done right.

The buyer's mechanic went through the plane and logbooks, and the potential buyer tried to beat me up on price due to the total time and damage history. His mechanic laughed, and said basically, this was one of the cleanest and best 180s hed seen recently....look at the logbook entries for the damage repair: "Removed and replaced right wing assembly with new Cessna right wing assembly, R and R horizontal tail surfaces and trim jackscrew assy with new Cessna parts....." Etc. His comment was "Hell, this is practically a new airplane."

So, IF you're lucky enough to find a mechanic or other expert who'll look at the plane and give you accurate feedback on the quality of repairs, damage history wouldn't scare me.

Frankly, seeing one of these planes WITHOUT any damage history sets off alarm bells, especially if the plane has a fair number of hours. There are folks out there who have had repairs that were'nt logged, for fear they'd influence sale price.

My 180 sold for the asking price, which was fair.

Zane…all of our aircraft at this point are either damaged through time or event…there are no 20 something Virgins out there…my 182 turns 70 yrs old on the 13th…some are preserved better than others but the odds of finding a pristine and unmolested option are few. The seller after the accident you mentioned likely took the hit…now it’s the market that speaks…a wiser man said the 4th Greatest Lie is a Stearman with No Damage History….likely applies to 180/185’s…and the airplane is a means to enjoy life and freedom…if yiu want a sure bet on value 10 years out put the cash in a T Bill…you are overdue on Ownership

mtv wrote:Zane,
Why would you even want a 185?

Why does anyone? As a family we’re sitting at 520 lbs of meat— my kids are almost 9 & 11. On floats and with any gear we will need that useful load. On the other hand, this morning I’m on the verge of abandoning my family or going swimming with concrete shoes, so perhaps an Airbike would suffice.

I can’t afford the rare virgin specimen, that’s not what I’m asking. The question though was somewhat technical, to which I was expecting an answer like “if they’ve rebuild X or Y, they can never get it right.” Sort of like the gear box repair thread where we decided half the mechanics who touch it fuck it up. What happens when ribs, spar sections, complete skins, door posts, and fuselage top skins are replaced after catastrophic mishap? Then again maybe most buyers aren’t as mentally ill as me when it comes to agonizing over details. I know of one guy, at least.

So anyway, I CAN afford the mangled shit-heaps but I want to sift through the turd a little to avoid the peanuts and make sure I only get whole kernel corn.

I think the question could only be answered by the likes of Rich Piney or his contemporaries.

Maybe it’s a stupid idea anyways as 100LL is about to become extinct and we’ll need ceramic paint jobs to run G100L.

Not having a flying airplane for 8 years has sucked but also been utterly humiliating given what I am supposed to be doing here. I’ve saved though, just trying to not blow my wad without some careful consideration.

Big planes and useful loads are really nice for families. I did fine with an old Skylane with extended baggage for a long time, but there came a point when I was not able to take friends along and even shipped a bunch of stuff (that I wanted, but didn't really need) to McCall so I could get everyone (and everything) up there to camp. So, when the 206 came up for sale, I jumped on it. It now has its own major damage history, but also a thick bunch of logbook entries and forms from Beegles documenting the repair, so I'm not really concerned about resale value. Besides, my intention is for my son to have it once I'm done flying. That, to me, is the key. You're gonna fly it. So buy what you want. Know that there will be teething pains the first couple of years (and budget accordingly), but it smooths out and you'll have your dream airplane right the way you like it.

OTOH, a little discipline and investment in lightweight backpacking gear makes 4 seaters work, and then there's the fact that guys flew for decades loaded to the roof on wheels, floats, and skis. Guys like Bud Helmericks are rolling on the floor laughing right now. Of course, they did use up a few airplanes . . .

A wise man said happiness is wanting what you have. Or wanting less. Or something like that. Anyway, when it comes to airplanes, I want what I have, and am happy for it.

Best of luck.

Terry

I'd worry less about the value someone else (that doesn't exist right now) is going to assign to it. And focus more on what your perceived value of it is.


I'd pour over the logs, then get in it and fly it.
Is it Legal? No? stop and re asses, Yes?>>>
Is it a sweet flyer? Yes ? Buy it, No? >>>
Is it an OK flyer that could shape up on a diet or re-rig? Yes ? Make an offer reflecting, No? Nix it, and keep looking.

C18X's really don't have many areas a competent Cessna mechanic can't get right, or spot when they're not.

FWIW, I don't know Rich Piney, so maybe I'm not qualified to answer, but I've bought and sold 'a few'. My favorite airplane to fly at work had the wings blown up in an early fueling incident. It later was groundlooped, and while the engine was out for repair is sat between a couple trees, and was visited by a hail storm. Every piece of metal facing up was removed and replaced. Finally ran in to a sign at which point the owner decided maybe aerial application was not their strong suit.
It was repaired by a meticulous shop, shows better than new, and flies better than any of the NDH birds I've flown in the same make and model. That is where I find value.

And although any old 180 will easily haul your mission, I'd agree that if the family is coming along, a 185 would be a more realistic tool for the job, just don't expect it to fly like a 1500# light weight.

Take care, Rob

My limited experience has been that when people write it down thoroughly, they are more likely to have done it well. Nobody wants to point out a major repair that they bungled, or be on the hook for it. I'd be more concerned with a logbook entry that said 'Repaired ground loop damage as needed', or no logbook entry at all.

Having said that, I bought my 205 after two prop strikes and a wingtip drag in 6 hours. It didn't affect the price significantly, but I got the sense it was harder to sell as other buyers were nervous about 'damage history'.

Rob wrote:I
And although any old 180 will easily haul your mission, I'd agree that if the family is coming along, a 185 would be a more realistic tool for the job, just don't expect it to fly like a 1500# light weight.

I do think about this. I enjoy a lighter airplane for flying solo or two-up. A mid model 180G/H/J model w/ PPonk would be perfect. But the values are really up there now. I still have one 180H to birddog... But my neighbor Ross won't shut up about the carrying capabilities of his 185.

Anyway...I regretted posting this at first because I often just want the answer to a specific question, but some of the life advice is very helpful. I've come a long from this time last year looking at Aeronca Sedans...to Maules...to...well, you know.

Yeah, kids only get bigger. And sometimes they adopt 130lb dogs that they want to bring everywhere.

Zane,

Good job further explaining your mission. When you start talking 500ish pounds of persons, we all know that tends to grow. And, floats....those are demanding mistresses when it comes to actual performance.

My problem is I view the 185 as a "work airplane", whatever that is. I've known folks who own 185s as family planes, but those folks never had to worry about the credit card bill at the end of the month.

That H model 180 I mentioned earlier in this thread would pretty much carry everything the 1985 185 I flew for ten years at work would, but the performance was somewhat more "leisurely" for sure. And, you are right that Skywagon prices these days are stupid crazy, frankly, and decent 180s seem to cost about as much as a 185.

A friend and I were discussing airplane prices and the price of entry into aircraft ownership this morning over coffee. It's nuts, frankly.

A question you may want to consider is this: Is it better to be flying something that may not precisely meet my mission parameters right now, or not fly till I find the ideal plane? I can't answer that question for you.

mtv wrote:Zane,

Good job further explaining your mission. When you start talking 500ish pounds of persons, we all know that tends to grow. And, floats....those are demanding mistresses when it comes to actual performance.

My problem is I view the 185 as a "work airplane", whatever that is. I've known folks who own 185s as family planes, but those folks never had to worry about the credit card bill at the end of the month.

That H model 180 I mentioned earlier in this thread would pretty much carry everything the 1985 185 I flew for ten years at work would, but the performance was somewhat more "leisurely" for sure. And, you are right that Skywagon prices these days are stupid crazy, frankly, and decent 180s seem to cost about as much as a 185.

A friend and I were discussing airplane prices and the price of entry into aircraft ownership this morning over coffee. It's nuts, frankly.

A question you may want to consider is this: Is it better to be flying something that may not precisely meet my mission parameters right now, or not fly till I find the ideal plane? I can't answer that question for you.

That's a good explanation Mike. I was wondering what you meant. For my part, and I have much less experience than you, I've found operating cost on the 180 vs 185 to be about the same. Annual is about the same. The 185 can burn more fuel, but if you cruise the 185 at 180 speed the 185 burns about the same fuel, or very little more. Insurance rates are same percentages of hull value.

As someone else has previously stated, there are very few if any 180/185 out there without damage history. Mine has been upside down in the water fairly early in life, but very well documented repairs. Previous owner to me flipped it on its back once and ground looped it badly once. Engine overhaul was in the previous century, but due to the prop strike in 2014 it got a new crank, so is it really a 1990's overhaul? My plane was repaired well, and documented well, it flies true and out climbs most.

Some repairs are obviously rough, some are harder to spot. Someone familiar AND competent with the airframe should be able to readily determine if the repairs were done well. There are buyers out there that insist on no damage history, they will be looking for a very long time. That 185 I was going to fly to Alaska had repairs so poor that I could see problems in the pictures, the log books did not assuage my concerns. Study the logs, and read between the lines.

I still think the market is soft, make some offers.

The biggest factor at resale is going to be the market conditions at the time, of course, but well-documented proper repairs done 30 years ago with I presume lots of hours flown since shouldn't horribly affect future resale it flies straight, etc. Most of these planes have been either repaired or modified in several ways since new after all.

There's a ton of wagons out there that NEED a wreck, just so they have a chance at getting rebuilt by someone who is competent. If they documented the work well, I'd go have a look. I'm not scared of damage history, I'm scared of shit maintenance.

Home sick today so hassling the internets.

Three things:

I think it goes back to the mission and if your mission is resale value then walk away. Sure the have been a couple moments when guys were making monies selling or flipping birds but not now.

Even the ugliest spam can will give you great service if that noise maker on the nose is healthy. Again what’s your mission. Can’t say the same for a tube and fabric bird.

This third thing is more critical: beware both the online silo and the flash and splash of the so called influencer.
-Kyle what’s his name comes to mind, I met him and he worked in my shop a couple summers before he became that internet aircraft sensation. He was 17/18 I think… sure he was motivated but he built that first 170 with daddies money. There no way you or I with our grown up responsibilities, without seven figure disposable income, and no need of a job can keep up. There have been/are a couple amazing builds here on the BCP that obviously fall under the same heading of money is no object, only their builders are a lot more mature about it

And that silo, it’s really a forth separate thing isn’t it?, our little BCP family, again in this internet age we look and crave for… what’s that damn phrase… Ah, confirmation bias, it’s that little dopamine hit that keeps us coming back for more rather then seeking the knowage that correctly tells us when we are wrong…
Shit, I’m having a hard time focusing on what I want to convay… might be the cold meds.

Zane, In the end it takes sacrifices hard work and a shit-ton of luck to own an airplane today, your airplane if you want to fly your family is a 206. If not an early 182 is your bird. Really.

Just buy somthing, anything, kick that paralysis by analysis in the ass! And budget $15k a year, $20k is better, and when you don’t use it all put the remainder in the bank for that big one, and yes that almost a couple AMU in the bank every month.

And depending on where you are in the economic food chain sit down and math out insurance, I won the game years ago by not having it, being a little lucky, making good choices etc. the reality was I couldn’t afford it first decade I flew anyway. I had a budy crush my spam can and I laughed about it, greatful no one was hurt and moved on, he fad a family and kids and worked some of it off, say 30¢ on the dollar more as a matter of honor then anything…

It’s life, live it!


Rocket

AEROPOD wrote:There's a ton of wagons out there that NEED a wreck, just so they have a chance at getting rebuilt by someone who is competent. If they documented the work well, I'd go have a look. I'm not scared of damage history, I'm scared of shit maintenance.

I laughed audibly.

I recently sold my 170. I bought it during COVID. Put the “must have” bush mods and a couple hundred hours on it. Sold if off market at TBO. Not including fuel, it cost me nothing to own. I should probably thank BigRenna for that. I’m convinced this was only possible because it was pretty.

I say this because buying an airplane seems to be more emotional than rational in many cases. I think this is especially true in the bush plane market (since most of us are just dreamers...). If you are already worrying about the resale on this 185 then you already know the answer. If it was a good deal it would have sold immediately.

On a personal note… I took some of the cash from my 170 and bought half an experimental with fancy panel and a new motor /prop. I don’t worry about annuals anymore. I don’t look at my mechanics work and exhale loudly out my nose. The plane is only 25 years old (vs 75). Life is good.

I still dream of a 180. Hell, if I’m honest I dream of a Pilatus Porter…. But having something that’s super affordable to fly and I can legally repair myself has removed an incredible emotional burden for me. Apparently there is a difference between the best airplane and the best airplane for me.

SmokeyTheBear wrote:I recently sold my 170. I bought it during COVID. Put the “must have” bush mods and a couple hundred hours on it. Sold if off market at TBO. Not including fuel, it cost me nothing to own. I should probably thank BigRenna for that. I’m convinced this was only possible because it was pretty.

I say this because buying an airplane seems to be more emotional than rational in many cases. I think this is especially true in the bush plane market (since most of us are just dreamers...). If you are already worrying about the resale on this 185 then you already know the answer. If it was a good deal it would have sold immediately.

On a personal note… I took some of the cash from my 170 and bought half an experimental with fancy panel and a new motor /prop. I don’t worry about annuals anymore. I don’t look at my mechanics work and exhale loudly out my nose. The plane is only 25 years old (vs 75). Life is good.

I still dream of a 180. Hell, if I’m honest I dream of a Pilatus Porter…. But having something that’s super affordable to fly and I can legally repair myself has removed an incredible emotional burden for me. Apparently there is a difference between the best airplane and the best airplane for me.

But what about the repairs?

I'm not worried at all about a plane having repairs. As most have said here, the vast majority of these planes have had damage history, and I'd rather it be logged then not. If it has pages of new parts and entries, I'd venture to say the plane was fixed properly. Feel free to DM or text me if you have questions about the shop that preformed the work for verification of quality, I may know who they are.