Hey all,

I'm an inexperienced pilot, only have a few hours of GA flight under my belt but I do have considerable experience flying hang gliders and a bit of powered hang gliders.

I'm looking to get my private license and would like to do it in my own plane ideally, or at least transition into it during my training. I'm hoping to get some advice here on what to look for in a first plane. Here's where I'm at now:

Things that ARE NOT important to me:
-Cruising speed is of very low importance as I'll likely spend most my time near the airport until I've got much more experience.
-Fancy avionics (rather learn to fly on a simple setup focusing on flight skills... glass can come later)
-Certified
-Interior aesthetics
-Color
-Brand loyalty (I'll take evidence over brand loyalty any day)

Things that ARE important to me:
-Under $30,000
-Low Fuel consumption
-Solid trustworthy engine/airframe (ideally proven over time)
-Capability of off-airport landings
-Low maintenance cost
-Minimum 2 seat
-Minimum 500lb payload

Things that would be great to have...
-Folding wings (more flexibility in storage options... trailer vs hanger, etc)
-Conventional Gear (Aside from the obvious off-airport landing perks I figure it would be easier to go from conventional to tricycle than the other way around)
-side-by-side seating
-Range over 250miles
-Stick over Yolk

I've been looking at Luscombes, Cubs, Champs, Cesna 140/150 and Kitfoxes... so far I like the Kitfox the best but am open to anything.

Piper Tri-Pacer PA-22-150

@ DBI - What makes the Piper Tri-Pacer PA-22-150 a better option over a Kitfox?

Taylorcraft BC-12D

(Kitfox is a good airplane too, but I'm leery of 2 strokes in general if you find one with that engine set up.)

Kitfox or Avid seems to fit your bill. I have lots of hours flying both (around 700 hrs) in Alaska over inhospitable terrain. Most guys that dont like 2 strokes dont understand them and have the 2 stroke horrors of the early days of ultralights stuck in their heads.

It is possible to find one with a 912 in it for that price.

The big consideration there is size of pilot and passenger. The early kitfox or Avids are tight for the larger guys to get into, but I have flown mine with a couple 240 pounders in the seat, but you cant be homophobic cause your passenger will probly have his or her arm around your shoulders LOL.

Your looking at a limited market at your price range and parameters.

With that said, the Pacer or the Tcrate would be a VERY desirable choice if you can live without the folding wings.

I suggest just getting a good old reliable and cost effective Cessna 172. It meets or exceeds all of the items on your wish list. It's a great trainer and an aircraft capable of so much more than that. With a STOL kit (e.g. Stein Aviation Sportsman STOL kit), it's an okay aircraft for dirt/grass/gravel strips. Acquisition, parts, maintenance, insurance, availability, economy, resale, etc., make it a viable and practical choice. (I like the old straight tails myself.)

Some random thoughts:

Stick vs. yoke--a non-issue. I learned with yokes, took maybe 3 1/2 minutes to transition to a stick. Back and forth on the same day soon made no difference.

Certified vs. experimental--unless you built it, you still have to have it "annualed" (it's called a condition inspection, I think) by a certificated mechanic. There is a significant price difference for non-TSO'd items, such as avionics, though. But you can't just DIY.

Wait until you've got some time under your belt. Although you have some aviation experience with the hang gliders, you may not have enough yet to know if you'll stick with it. A $30K airplane can be a millstone if it's just sitting at a tie-down or in a hangar and not being flown, either because you've lost interest or because it doesn't fit your actual mission.

And that's the real question: are you really all that sure what you'll want to be able to do with it after you get your private certificate? Many students have warped ideas of their "ideal airplane", until after they have some time and have the opportunity to fly several different airplanes. The aviation economy is still marginal, so you don't want to be stuck with something that doesn't fit your mission. Early in your training, it's hard to know what your mission really will be.

I know it sounds like heresy to say it here, but sometimes people who think they'll want a back country capable airplane find that they never use it. It can be like guy who buys the jacked up SUV with the 10,000 lb. winch on the bumper that never leaves the pavement. They find that they don't have the skills, or the desire to learn the skills, to get into the back country. And some, like me, find that they can do just what they want to, with an airplane that is far from perfect for the back country but still lets them get into a few of the "easier" places.

Over the years, missions change, too. Two-up works great for a single or a couple, but it doesn't carry much extra--there are exceptions. A 4-place flown as a 2-place provides lots of room for stuff, dog, etc. and often has better performance than a 2-place.

My first airplane was a 182 in partnership--great airplane, fit our mission perfectly at the time, as both Wife 1 and I enjoyed flying, we had 2 kids and a large dog, and we could go wherever we wanted in it. Over the course of the partnership, we moved on to a TR182 (faster, not better, than a straight 182, and much more capable at high altitudes) and then to a T210--a truly great airplane which is fast, hauls a humongous load, and is not fun to fly and costs a mint to operate if all you're doing is hauling yourself and one other.

Now my SO doesn't like to fly, my kids have been grown and gone for 25 years, I usually fly solo or with a buddy and my dog, and so my hot rod P172D fills the bill perfectly for me. I can get into the mountains, land on reasonable strips, travel leisurely, go IFR if I choose, go long distances if I don't mind taking awhile, etc.

So my strongest advice is to wait awhile until you're more sure of what you'll want the airplane to be able to do. Owning any airplane, certificated or experimental, is expensive, and while you're learning, often it's less expensive to rent. You'll rarely come out ahead to own. If you do happen to hit the right one, great. But don't be in too much of a hurry.

Cary

Cary I second just about everything you said. Right on.

Rans S6.

Hi Mr. Sky Junkie,

What do you not like about tandem seating? For me, tandem seating and a stick is best.

-8

For the first time in a month I'm able to post. Weird. Something happened all by itself. Oh, I would love a tandem airplane but I am fully married; as in committed. She wants to sit next to me. She hates the back of my head. So, I'm with the OP and Svanarts. S6--something something. Fantastic airplane. As is the Zenith CH701 or 750. That's my bird.

Nice to be back
EB

Some good advice all around so far. And in the Shameless Commerce Department, I've got my C-172 posted in the FS forum....

Thanks. cubscout

Thanks for all the input! I've got a lot more to think about now.

@ 8GCBC - I actually prefer tandem but I know my wife will prefer being next to me, especially on longer flights. Stick vs Yolk is just a preference, I simply like the feel of it better.

@ Cary - I agree like a car there is no ideal plane for every application. However, there is NO concern that this is something I love, I've been hooked on flying since I bought my first RC plane in 2nd grade. I simply didn't want to get into until I could afford to do it full steam ahead. I know I love back country flying and figure it's a good place to start. If money wasn't a concern I'd really like a RV7.

So far I've flown:
-Cesna152
-Cesna172
-Cesna182
-RV6
-Supercub (amphibious)
-Texan T6
-Piper Twin Comanche (PA-30)
-Travel Air 6000
-Beaver
-Mosquito (Powered hang glider)


Any other wing folders other than the Kitfox?
What are the chances of finding a Kitfox with a 912i? Or maybe finding one with a bum motor and having a 912i installed?

Most guys that dont like 2 strokes dont understand them and have the 2 stroke horrors of the early days of ultralights stuck in their heads.

Guilty...

RRRRRRRRRRRRR______(silence)______

The Just Highlander fits the bill to a T, except for price. Ya just can't have it all!

Brent

The Zenair 701/750 might be a good choice for a few reasons.

But first, you have to get over the cosmetic issue that Mr. Heintz designed into them. Once you get over that cosmetic issue.....

You can have folding wings, and store it at home on a cheap flatbed trailer, saving hangar rent
You can have the Continental O-200, arguably the gold standard of reliability, and far cheaper than the 912/914
You can have all metal skins, meaning the airplane will fare better when stored outside
The airplanes are easy to fly
The 750 has exceptional visibility for a high wing STOL type airplane
The airplanes will operate SAFELY out of a 400-500 foot clearing
The 750 has room for two full size lumberjacks and the goat they brought for lunch
The 701 and 750 (and 801) are routinely and successfully used for all manner of camping, boondocking, fishing, hunting, gold panning, visiting remote ammunition caches, etc.
The airplanes are able to be used on wheels, skiis, floats with minimal modifications, and Zenair offers a float kit designed for them
If and when you do get to the "extreme" end of the STOL operations spectrum, you can convert them to tailwheel configuration and great big bush tires
If you are on a tight budget you can scratch build and save money at the expense of time
If you have a reasonable amount of money you can buy a 400 hour quick build kit
The Zenairs have a strong history of many many hundreds having been built and safely flown worldwide
Tremendous factory and community support, builder videos, builder blogs, etc
You sign off the annual inspections

IMHO that's a lot of positives to balance against the one or two negatives. Not many kit or plans built airplanes can directly demonstrate hundreds of examples built, many of them out in the sticks with only hand tools, no local EAA chapter, no machine tools, no hangar, etc. Although I very much support almost all of the kit manufacturers and wish all of them well, when you look through the Zenair website you come away with a very strong feeling that you can and will complete the project safely, enjoyably, and in the number of hours they claim. That says a whole lot to me.

Cary made a lot of good points that I'd really think about. I'm trying to sell my Luscombe now to get into a bigger plane...selling an airplane sucks. Make sure you know what you want before you buy.

That said, I knew I wanted a Luscombe when I bought mine 12yrs ago. It has been a fantastic airplane. I learned to fly in it and have taken it many places. It has been inexpensive to fly and own. If I could I'd keep it. Now I have a family that I want to fly with so I need something bigger. If it was just going to be me and the wife flying I'd keep the Luscombe and be very happy but with 2 kids to bring along I need something different. So if flying with kids is in your future I'd buy a pacer/tripacer, Stinson, 170 etc. You can find any of those planes in your price range. If you want a Luscombe I know where you can find one for about 20k.

Come on down to Idaho Falls and get some Luscombe time.

whee wrote:Come on down to Idaho Falls and get some Luscombe time.

I think that's the best advice here.

Go get time in different airplanes and see how they fit you. You can read BS on here till the cows come home, but until you sit in the front seat and make it fly you'll have no clue.

Gump

After you visit Idaho Falls come a bit further west to the Boise area and I'd be glad to take you up in my PA-22 if it makes your short list.

There is a Kitfox IV with a Jabiru 2200 that is probably still for sale (http://topfunflyersidaho.com/Classifieds_-_Air_Craft.html). I don't know anything about it other than what is posted there, but was considering it before my wife convinced me we wanted 4 seats.

DO NOT give yourself a timeframe for purchasing an aircraft with your limited experience!

SAME as I suggest to others hoping to ocean sail ...crew for at least two years and watch others spend money at an alarming rate. Then decide which boat is best.

Keep your head in the search but, keep it an open end project. You may find an excellent value tomorrow but, you may not either.