I'd carry the 9mm with 20 rounds of hard cast. You didn't mention which model Elite, but if it's a long barrel model that'd be really nice. Keep the semi-compact loaded with anti personnel rounds.

Just me.

If your elite isn't the compact one it'd be good for shooting steel challenge matches near you:

http://www.seips.org/index.php

I think some of the USPSA matches are a little tacticool for my taste, but the steel challenge matches are super-fun. You'll learn a lot about shooting, too.

Hammer, what 10mm round would you recommenced for hopefully not shooting a bear in AK? Also, what rounds would you recommend for practicing at the range for hopefully not shooting aforementioned bear? I'm a new (4 months ago) owner of a 10mm.

asa wrote:Hammer, what 10mm round would you recommenced for hopefully not shooting a bear in AK? Also, what rounds would you recommend for practicing at the range for hopefully not shooting aforementioned bear? I'm a new (4 months ago) owner of a 10mm.

What 10mm do you have?

For hopefully not shooting a bear I'd recommend two rounds: Underwood 200 grain hard cast or the Underwood 220 grain hard cast:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collectio ... 5723908153
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collectio ... 5725055033

I had to put a heavier recoil spring in my Glock 20 to make the 220's function properly, which is not uncommon. It's an inexpensive and easy mod, btw. 200's worked with the stock spring, but the heavier spring kept the gun from getting battered so enthusiastically and I've never gone back to the stock spring, even for non-Hiroshima loads.

It's pretty important to run at least one full box through your gun and chosen magazine to verify function. I have three magazines that are ammo-particular...they'll run everything fine except one specific load. No idea why, but it's real prudent to test each load to each magazine. That gets expensive, so I generally test critical loads with one or two magazines and just stick with them for that application.

For practice I'd use one of the inexpensive, medium-power loads. Sellier&Bellot makes a good 180 grain round, as does Magtech. Those are the two "bargain" loads I've used that impressed me, though I'm sure there are others out there. The Underwood's recoil is stouter, but it's not worth a buck a shot to practice with them. It's not that big a difference from the shooters perspective. Load one or two Underwood loads randomly into a magazine of S&B, and you probably won't be able to tell which is which under rapid-fire practice.

BTW, Underwood recommends the Lehigh Defense bullets for bear defense...something I really disagree with. For starters I don't believe Lehigh's claims about wound cavity are relevant in anything other than ballistic gelatin, and they don't penetrate nearly as deeply as the hard cast lead rounds. They're also a lot more expensive. Lose-lose from my perspective.

If it's available in your area, go to a USPSA shooting event. They can be a lot of fun, and the pressure of shooting against the clock, for a score, with an audience, will teach you a lot more about shooting for keeps than punching paper or perforating soup cans ever will. It's not the same as being charged by a bear, but it's amazing how many people who fancy themselves reasonable gunslingers go to pieces at the starting BEEP of the timer.

Have fun!

Hammer wrote:

asa wrote:Hammer, what 10mm round would you recommenced for hopefully not shooting a bear in AK? Also, what rounds would you recommend for practicing at the range for hopefully not shooting aforementioned bear? I'm a new (4 months ago) owner of a 10mm.

What 10mm do you have?

For hopefully not shooting a bear I'd recommend two rounds: Underwood 200 grain hard cast or the Underwood 220 grain hard cast:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collectio ... 5723908153
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collectio ... 5725055033

I had to put a heavier recoil spring in my Glock 20 to make the 220's function properly, which is not uncommon. It's an inexpensive and easy mod, btw. 200's worked with the stock spring, but the heavier spring kept the gun from getting battered so enthusiastically and I've never gone back to the stock spring, even for non-Hiroshima loads.

It's pretty important to run at least one full box through your gun and chosen magazine to verify function. I have three magazines that are ammo-particular...they'll run everything fine except one specific load. No idea why, but it's real prudent to test each load to each magazine. That gets expensive, so I generally test critical loads with one or two magazines and just stick with them for that application.

For practice I'd use one of the inexpensive, medium-power loads. Sellier&Bellot makes a good 180 grain round, as does Magtech. Those are the two "bargain" loads I've used that impressed me, though I'm sure there are others out there. The Underwood's recoil is stouter, but it's not worth a buck a shot to practice with them. It's not that big a difference from the shooters perspective. Load one or two Underwood loads randomly into a magazine of S&B, and you probably won't be able to tell which is which under rapid-fire practice.

BTW, Underwood recommends the Lehigh Defense bullets for bear defense...something I really disagree with. For starters I don't believe Lehigh's claims about wound cavity are relevant in anything other than ballistic gelatin, and they don't penetrate nearly as deeply as the hard cast lead rounds. They're also a lot more expensive. Lose-lose from my perspective.

If it's available in your area, go to a USPSA shooting event. They can be a lot of fun, and the pressure of shooting against the clock, for a score, with an audience, will teach you a lot more about shooting for keeps than punching paper or perforating soup cans ever will. It's not the same as being charged by a bear, but it's amazing how many people who fancy themselves reasonable gunslingers go to pieces at the starting BEEP of the timer.

Have fun!

Thanks so much, very helpful. I have a G20

My Elite 9mm is the 4.5" barrel.

I went to the store yesterday to see what ammo was available on the shelf for my .45 and ended up fondling the 10mm again. If I had just stuck with what I wanted I would have one pistol...now it looks like I'll have three. I really don't want or need "extras." I'm not going to carry except when in the woods and I really don't think I have it in me to shoot a person so I don't know why I'd want to keep any of the guns loaded with rounds for that purpose.

Underwood says my .45 will handle those +p round without any changes.

I'd need some serious mentoring before considering entering any competition; both would be a good thing for me. I'm comfortable going shooting on my own in the desert but put me in a range and I get nervous. I'am always worried some range instructor is going to holler at me for something. I don't know what I don't know...

Thanks for the help guys. It is sincerely appreciated.

whee wrote:My Elite 9mm is the 4.5" barrel.

That's a REALLY nice little gun. I'm thinking that you are going to love shooting it.

And get a Maglula speedloader. You'll thank me later!

whee wrote:…..I really don't think I have it in me to shoot a person so I don't know why I'd want to keep any of the guns loaded with rounds for that purpose......

That is very refreshing to hear,
esp when you see comments on the handgun discussion sites
where it sounds like the poster is dying to shoot someone,
or at least wouldn't be bothered by it.

some of those folk scare the crap out of me. I do not know what has caused the shift in society but it is apparent.

soaringhiggy wrote:some of those folk scare the crap out of me. I do not know what has caused the shift in society but it is apparent.

Grand Theft Auto, Hitman, etc, etc. when way too young to process it. Garbage.

I agree with that! How do I reset the person that I just shot?

Whee,
While I agree that you should have just bought the 10mm, you obviously bought the .45 for a reason. So shoot it a couple hundred times and if you still like it and can actually hit anything with it, run a box or two of Underwood 255 grain loads through it. If they function fine then you've found your woods gun/load.

Frankly I'd be more concerned about having a gun you'll cary and can hit something with than the specific caliber. That might or might not be the .45, but since you bought it you might as well find out.

If you can't hit anything with the .45 or don't really like shooting it, then run a few hundred rounds through the 9mm and see how that goes. A little longer barrel and a little less recoil might be just what's called for.

Chances are you'll never actually need a handgun in the woods, so I can't see any point in someone who's not real interested in handgun shooting owning THREE handguns in three different calibers.

Or sell one or both of the guns you've got and just get the 10mm you know you should have gotten in the first place.

Guns are just like airplanes...there's no best one and buying them is the cheap part: each model is a trade-off and compromise and the one you own and can use well is better than all the ones you don't and can't. And just like avgas, money spent on ammo pays higher dividends than money spent on more or different hardware.

Thanks Hammer.

I bought the .45 because it was cheap and that’s what all of the local guys told me to buy if I wanted a semi-auto pistol for the woods. I’ve been wanting a gun for a while but never could convince myself to pay $600 for a gun I hope to never use. Getting what I thought would be a decent second choice for $350 was a no brainer...obviously. I knew I wanted a 10mm and I still want a 10mm so this .45 may end up locked in the case and never shot. I should probably just sell it.

I only put a couple dozen rounds though the 10mm and it was just 180gr target ammo (still with more muzzle energy than those Underwood +p .45 rounds) but it seemed like a comfortable easy shooter. Since the physical size is basically the same for the XDM in either 10mm or 9mm I might as well carry the 10mm.

My wife is showing some desire to become familiar and comfortable around pistols so I’ll keep the 9mm for that.

Enough of my ramblings. Thanks for the help guys.

Whee,
.
Hammer's advice is good....go shoot the .45. And, before you leap on a 10 mm, shoot one a fair bit. There's a reason the FBI transitioned to 10 mm for all their agents a number of years ago, and very quickly started carrying .40 cal ammo in them......their range scores went down a fair bit shooting 10 mm rounds.

As Hammer said, if you can't hit squat with a hand cannon in real life, having the biggest pistol on the planet isn't going to do you any good when the you know what hits the fan. A smaller caliber pistol with less felt recoil and better control may be a better choice, IF you can shoot it better and more reliably hit what you're aiming at.

Both the gun's "fit" for lack of a better term and felt recoil will affect your ability to put lead on target. Sometimes it takes some experimenting to find the right combination.

And, a gun you're using for protection (as opposed to a range pistol) needs to fit you well, and you need to be able to shoot it well.

MTV

Find something that fits, it’s all about confidence......to the point where you almost can’t miss.

Whee,
I felt bad for your conundrum, so in the spirit of solidarity I went out and bought another 10mm yesterday. I've got your back like that...unless we're charged by a bear, in which case I'm climbing a tree.

Hammer wrote:Whee,
I felt bad for your conundrum, so in the spirit of solidarity I went out and bought another 10mm yesterday. I've got your back like that...unless we're charged by a bear, in which case I'm climbing a tree.

Don’t have to outrun the bear, just you haha

Have a bit of professional curiosity about this subject, I’m an outfitter on the coastal Alaskan border in BC. Personally, I carry a long slide Glock 10mm. This said, I have very, very little faith in handguns are stoppers, it’s a last resort. And all that matters should you need to use one is shot placement, I gave up my .475 Linebaugh after coming to understand it’s not more effective than the 10mm, all that matters is where you place the bullet.

Ballistically, straight from the FBI’s ballistics lab there’s a cutoff of 2200fps impacts where tissue damage occurs from the pressure waves traveling through the tissue. This is why rifles are a phase shift more effective than handguns, as even quite sedate rifles generally impact above 2200fps. Below that threshold, you will still see 100% lethality with proper placement, but it will act much slower and be from breaking bone, nervous system, and bleeding out.

Moral of the story is carry a handgun light enough to carry everywhere, and that’s easy to quickly place accurate shots with. Better yet, carry a small carbine that throws its bullets above 2400fps at the muzzle, to ensure a 2200+ impact. After having seen many of these guys fall, I came to fully understand the .45-70 / .475 Linebaugh style is misguided, a plain .30-06 will kill more cleanly. Not saying a .45-70 or heavy revolver round doesn’t kill, they do, but they’re less likely to plant the bear on his own shadow by far.

Pictured is my .375 H&H double, which has the best of both worlds, enough speed and enough penetration. Handguns can’t get the speed, so stick with something easy to shoot and carry.

That is an extremely classy rifle.