When it comes to selecting the most appropriate caliber handgun is the one that you will actually be comfortable carrying. While a .460 S&W might be the most potent handgun round for stopping power it won't do you much good if you left it at home in the safe because the gun is too heavy for carrying or is too brutal to shoot.

One of my friends hiked the CDT a dozen years ago or so and he thought that it be a wise idea to carry a .44 Magnum for defense against Grizzlies and/or Mountain Lions; he wasn't even out of NM when he shipped that thing home because it was too damn heavy to carry all day everyday.

If you study ballistics there's not too many pistol rounds out there that carry the lethality of a Rifle round or a 12 gauge slug. My go to pistol is the 9mm, I've qualified expert with it in the DHS advanced pistol course, it's light to carry and comfortable and easy to shoot (I probably would not have been able qual expert with a .40 as it's more difficult to get follow up shots as quickly due to the extra recoil/snappiness of the .40). Another reason many like myself choose 9mm is it's cheap, shooting is like flying you gotta practice to stay proficient and it's easier on the wallet to mow through a couple boxes of 9mm than .40 (it's ~ 30% cheaper than .40). Depending on how much you shoot that savings can add up over time (or if you're like me you just shoot more rounds negating any savings ). A lot of guys buy themselves a nice Sig or HK, shoot a box or 2 through it and then never shoot it again, thinking they're investing in self defense when in actuality you're just buying yourself a false sense of security.

For anyone getting ready to buy their first handgun with aspirations to carry I say go for a Glock 19 and 1000 rounds of ammo. It's proven gun that's cheap to buy with cheap mags and cheap ammo. (I don't even own any Glocks, but for new shooters it's tough to beat). If I were going to be flying somewhere that if I went down and it might take a long time for search and rescue to find me (like weeks/never) and needed a survival rifle I'd have a 10/22 take down model in the plane. Packs small and is light weight and I can shoot enough rabbits/squirrels to feed me for awhile.

Will a 9mm stop a griz in it's tracks? No way, but a .40 probably won't either. If I'm going into Griz or Mountain Lion Territory (the latter is my backyard) I keep my eyes open and try to avoid an encounter, same thing if I'm in the 'hood.

I've got nothing to add about which gun to buy....lots of great advice here.
Just after 40 years of being a dairy veterinarian, I've euthanized lots (100+ maybe) of cows, all with a simple Ruger Stainless Mark II 22LR.
I have a couple of Glocks and a Ruger 9mm for CC but for simply finishing off a North American big game a 22LR is fine.
DocDairy

DocDairy wrote:I've got nothing to add about which gun to buy....lots of great advice here.
Just after 40 years of being a dairy veterinarian, I've euthanized lots (100+ maybe) of cows, all with a simple Ruger Stainless Mark II 22LR.
I have a couple of Glocks and a Ruger 9mm for CC but for simply finishing off a North American big game a 22LR is fine.
DocDairy

I thought vets were supposed to heal the cows...

I know it's been mentioned here, 10mm is hard to beat in an auto. I'm not personally a fan of revolvers, but if you like them and can shoot them well, there are plenty of capable calibers available.

In automatics, IF you can comfortably and properly grip it, the Glock model 40 is a damned fine piece, but that's a large grip to wrap your hands around. For me, it's too big. I personally run a 17 in 9mm as well as a 19, also in 9mm, for when I want a slightly smaller package. That being said, anything 9mm or larger will serve you well. Buy QUALITY ammo for it and they all perform. As has been said before, it's more about what you can comfortably carry and shoot accurately.

For revolvers, I would stick to the more common calibers like .357 or .44 Magnum. The magnum rounds will kick like a mule, but you can do the majority of your practice with Specials and also save money doing it. Again, quality ammo is more important than caliber (to a point, don't go get a .25 and think it'll do the job on anything larger than a wolf) I would stay away from less common ammo like .41, .460 or .500 S&W and the like, unless you're willing to give up the option of buying ammo locally. This also applies to 10mm, as that's less common as well but I like the cartridge so I still recommend it and it's more likely to be on the shelves than .460/.500, at least at the shops I go to.

If your concern is more about 2 legged predators, I would stay with the 9mm and up and automatics. Revolvers are nice, but reloads under stress take a lot more training and practice to get right.

Some times it just time for a new cow.

As is evident in this thread, lots of opinions! I won't weigh in, but here's a great AK grizzly story for everyone.
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaska ... z66Lf3vYEU

So, you want a hand cannon? Well, do ya, Punk? https://americanguncraft.com/product/di ... ack-grips/

MTV

mtv wrote: So, you want a hand cannon? Well, do ya, Punk? https://americanguncraft.com/product/di ... ack-grips/ MTV

Non-cartridge black-powder, so bypasses a lot of rules.
Better be able to get the job done with 2 shots though.
IMHO that thing is made to kill at one end and hurt at the other.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: So, you want a hand cannon? Well, do ya, Punk? https://americanguncraft.com/product/di ... ack-grips/ MTV

Non-cartridge black-powder, so bypasses a lot of rules.
Better be able to get the job done with 2 shots though.
IMHO that thing is made to kill at one end and hurt at the other.

I never suggested it was elegant..... Just the appearance of the thing ought to scare the crap out of most critters.

MTV

mtv wrote:So, you want a hand cannon? Well, do ya, Punk? https://americanguncraft.com/product/di ... ack-grips/

MTV

I don't think it'd be my everyday carry, but I sure want to shoot one!

I'll pass, it like my shoulder just where it is thank you very much

Timbuk2 wrote:As is evident in this thread, lots of opinions! I won't weigh in, but here's a great AK grizzly story for everyone.
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaska ... z66Lf3vYEU

That's one of more eccentrically written articles I've read lately. For a minute I thought it was an advertisement for Serpa holsters...and the link to NOAA's website, while it does verify the weather, seems a strange addition.

I guess the main thing I'm puzzled by is going into grizzly habitat to look for a moose that's been bleeding for twelve hours, armed only with a handgun. I'm a big proponent of the 10mm, but it's not what I would choose as a primary weapon in that circumstance. You have to believe at least one of those guys had a shotgun at home.

The article does do a wonderful job of emphasizing the critical importance of bullet placement over bullet energy. The HSM Bear Load is weak sauce by 10mm standards... almost 30% slower than the equivalent load from Underwood. Better than an expanding self-defense bullet for sure, but hardly full-house 10mm bear protection.

Lastly, I don't care how hard the bear hit the ground, I wouldn't have stopped with two shots! With 14 more rounds in the gun, I can see no reason at all not to put four or five more into the brain. Something I try to teach my boys: always put one in the brain...

Well things didn’t go as planned. Springfield was at the local range today so finally got to shoot the XDm 10mm and I really liked it. I couldn’t quite convince myself to spend what they were asking so I didn’t buy one. I went back later when they were doing a drawing for an XDm Elite 9mm. Before the drawing they knocked an extra $100 off a few guns so I grabbed a sub-compact XD Mod2 45. Not really what I wanted but I’m happy and it was cheap enough that purchasing it won’t prevent me from buying a 10mm. Plus I won the 9mm!

I know at least three people who have won those 9mm's in drawings! Every one of them loves it, some have even bought the 45 variant after. While I've always been a Glock guy (it just fits my hand/wrist angle better and sends lead right where I point it) the XD's are pretty sweet.

I've always carried .45 (old leo buddy convinced me it was the bees knees), but I've been thinking about going to 9mm. After years of shooting .45 from a sub compact platform, a 9mm in a medium frame feels like a .22 and follow up shots are much easier.

whee wrote:Well things didn’t go as planned. Springfield was at the local range today so finally got to shoot the XDm 10mm and I really liked it. I couldn’t quite convince myself to spend what they were asking so I didn’t buy one. I went back later when they were doing a drawing for an XDm Elite 9mm. Before the drawing they knocked an extra $100 off a few guns so I grabbed a sub-compact XD Mod2 45. Not really what I wanted but I’m happy and it was cheap enough that purchasing it won’t prevent me from buying a 10mm. Plus I won the 9mm!

Hahahaha...didn't see that coming. Congrats on winning the 9!

9mm is back in vogue since the FBI re-adopted it, so you could probably trade it in on a 10mm if you were so inclined. All cartridges have their niche, but for a woods round 10mm is by far the best of the autoloading cartridges.

If you shot the .45 subcompact and liked it enough to buy it, then the reduced recoil of a 9mm probably doesn't offer you much worth keeping. A little cheaper to shoot is all.

Have fun with your new toys!

Hammer wrote:

Timbuk2 wrote:As is evident in this thread, lots of opinions! I won't weigh in, but here's a great AK grizzly story for everyone.
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaska ... z66Lf3vYEU

That's one of more eccentrically written articles I've read lately. For a minmute I thought it was an advertisement for Serpa holsters...and the link to NOAA's website, while it does verify the weather, seems a strange addition.

I guess the main thing I'm puzzled by is going into grizzly habitat to look for a moose that's been bleeding for twelve hours, armed only with a handgun. I'm a big proponent of the 10mm, but it's not what I would choose as a primary weapon in that circumstance. You have to believe at least one of those guys had a shotgun at home.

The article does do a wonderful job of emphasizing the critical importance of bullet placement over bullet energy. The HSM Bear Load is weak sauce by 10mm standards... almost 30% slower than the equivalent load from Underwood. Better than an expanding self-defense bullet for sure, but hardly full-house 10mm bear protection.

Lastly, I don't care how hard the bear hit the ground, I wouldn't have stopped with two shots! With 14 more rounds in the gun, I can see no reason at all not to put four or five more into the brain. Something I try to teach my boys: always put one in the brain...

There are several things in that article, and the story that appear to be BS.

There are two photos of that bear in the article, both include pretty good views of the head. I don’t see any evidence of a head shot that penetrated the skull. IF he did hit the head with one round, it no doubt glanced off along the top of the skull and penetrated the neck and shoulders, if it didn’t glance off. Shooting a brown bear in the head is not a great idea in any case, the foreheads on these things is like armor, and in a charge you’d almost never get a good perpendicular angle on that skull.

The best place to shoot a charging Bear is just above the skull. If you’ve ever seen one charge, and I have, they are surprisingly close to the ground. So, you shoot just above the head as you’re looking at the bear, a well placed bullet will take out the spine and break down the shoulders, and if it penetrates, it’ll wind up wiping out the boiler room as well. But in any case, it’ll stop the bear.

And, I’m betting that’s exactly where at least one of those 10mm rounds hit.

This whole story is classic active duty military hunters in Alaska. There are a lot of military folks who are great outdoorsmen, but believe me, a lot of military types are not very smart hunters. So, walking out to find a dead moose without a long gun? Why not? Moose are heavy and long guns are a PITA to lug around with all that moose meat on your back.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen that scenario. Or, how about the guys with a very large (as in B &C caliber) brown bear they killed on Kodiak. When I arrived to check license/tags, they were trying to figure out how to skin it. Neither had brought a knife . And, no salt for the hide..... . so, I gave them the knife from my survival kit, flew to a guides camp and borrowed some salt, and flew back. They hadn’t started skinning yet......had no idea where to start..... .

Finally, the bear in that article is tiny. 800 pounds? No way. I’d give it maybe four hundred. But not a big bear. Look at the claws....older bears claws are worn and show as ivory colored often. This was a young one.

Head shots work on most critters, but not charging bears.

MTV

Hammer wrote:

whee wrote:Well things didn’t go as planned. Springfield was at the local range today so finally got to shoot the XDm 10mm and I really liked it. I couldn’t quite convince myself to spend what they were asking so I didn’t buy one. I went back later when they were doing a drawing for an XDm Elite 9mm. Before the drawing they knocked an extra $100 off a few guns so I grabbed a sub-compact XD Mod2 45. Not really what I wanted but I’m happy and it was cheap enough that purchasing it won’t prevent me from buying a 10mm. Plus I won the 9mm!

Hahahaha...didn't see that coming. Congrats on winning the 9!

9mm is back in vogue since the FBI re-adopted it, so you could probably trade it in on a 10mm if you were so inclined. All cartridges have their niche, but for a woods round 10mm is by far the best of the autoloading cartridges.

If you shot the .45 subcompact and liked it enough to buy it, then the reduced recoil of a 9mm probably doesn't offer you much worth keeping. A little cheaper to shoot is all.

Have fun with your new toys!

I didn’t get to shoot the .45 so hopefully I don’t hate it. Can’t be worse that a .357 magnum wheel gun can it? I like that it is small so it will be easier to put in the saddle bag on my raft but the 4.5” 10mm would have fit fine and been my preference.

Idk what I’m going to do with the 9mm. I offered it to my wife but she has no interest. My pops has a XDM 9mm which I’ve shot some and while it seems like a nice shooting gun it just doesn’t do anything for me. Trading it towards a 10mm is kinda what I’m thinking I’ll do. Or not.

Any recommendations on what bullets to buy for the .45? Main purpose is for carrying in the woods.

whee wrote:Any recommendations on what bullets to buy for the .45? Main purpose is for carrying in the woods.

10mm's...haha. More energy at 100 yards than .45 has at the muzzle. Just saying...

What you want are hard cast lead bullets with a wide meplat, as heavy as the gun will function with.

This is the ultimate, but you might have to change your recoil spring, and even then you'll have to shoot a couple boxes to verify that they work in your gun (true for any round, but especially true for a turbo-charged round like this). They might not be real fun to shoot in a compact gun, either. Keep in mind that you're not going to get published velocities out of your shorter barrel with any ammo.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collectio ... 5707622457

You can call or email Underwood and ask them if they have any experience with that load in your gun. They're very helpful.

I wouldn't spend your money on the Lehigh solid copper xtreme series of bullets. They don't penetrate nearly as well as hard cast lead bullets, and their claims about the size of the wound cavity are rather exaggerated. I don't think they're worth the money, though apparently some other people do.

Double Tap and Buffalo Bore make a similar load. Double Tap grossly exaggerates their velocities and the owner of BB is a convicted wildlife poisoner and has the customer service personality of a wet badger, so I don't buy BB products. DT is still fine ammo, and I think that their non-nuclear loads are actually pretty good for a lot of applications, but their false advertising annoys me.

Because .45acp is not commonly considered a woods load there aren't many options. One would think that fmj ball ammo would perform as well as hard cast lead, but it doesn't. Full metal jacket ammo doesn't maintain a straight wound channel and tends to tumble, which dramatically retards penetration.

I don't know anything about this ammo, but at least it's a lead bullet with a decent meplat that's not turbo-charged. I'd pick it over any expanding or fmj bullet for woods use, and it's reasonably priced so you can run a couple hundred through your gun and verify that it functions well.
https://choiceammunition.com/product/45 ... -loaded-3/

The attributes that make .45 hollow point ammo so effective on human sized targets makes it a very poor choice for larger targets. The bullet is already big with a pretty poor sectional density and low velocity. Add expansion to that and you end up with shallow penetration for anything as big as a black bear. Not saying it won't work, just that it's not ideal.

whee wrote:...
I didn’t get to shoot the .45 so hopefully I don’t hate it. Can’t be worse that a .357 magnum wheel gun can it?

Just saw this...hahahaha. Depends on the weight of the .357...but no, probably not. I doubt you'll hate it, but I wouldn't start out with the Underwood 255 +P. That, you might not enjoy.

Sometimes you'll find semi-wadcutter lead target ammo at Sportsman's Whorehouse or Cabella's or the like. It's not loaded hot and the lead is usually soft rather than hard-cast, but it's still a better woods load than hollow point or FMJ ammo. You might find that the +P ammo works against you in a small gun. Better to hit something four times with a light round than miss it twice with hot rounds.

Regardless, get the heaviest bullets you can. 230 grain is ideal, and I wouldn't consider anything lighter than 200 grain. The higher velocity of the lighter bullets does not compensate for the reduced sectional density.

That Choice Ammunition place has a sale on 250-pax of the .45 coated lead ammo. It comes out to twenty-five cents a round, verses a dollar round for the Underwood stuff. I guess the only bummer would be if your gun didn't like it and now you're stuck with 250 rounds.