Long story short I have an opportunity to instruct SES add-ons in a C170 not too far from home. Given the lack of rated (notice I didn't say QUALIFIED) people around, the owner is anxious to get me in the right seat; although I am more concerned with actually being competent and useful before I jump in. What would you consider a reasonable about of SES time before instructing? He also has a 140 I should be able to build a little time in but I want to make sure we are on the same page before I put much time on his planes. I believe insurance requires 25 but that seems a little low to be instructing.


I got my SES add on in a PA12 just for the heck of it then this came up a couple months later. So at this point I'm a green SES pilot with a CFI that hasnt been used a whole lot. Given the location, the flying will be limited to the river and a couple nearby lakes. Thanks for your thoughts

Can you get your SES instructor to evaluate you? Were you confident in their ability? I'd want a good CFII to sit in the left seat and act like a dangerous student for a few hours to make sure you can save the airplane. When they think you're ready, then you're ready.

Yeah there are a couple instructors available for the check out so that will be no problem, I was just curious what seemed reasonable before taking on a student. I have plenty of time in old 172s and 182s so I guess its really just a matter of spending some time on the water and figuring out how to keep from swimming.

Instructors at Kenmore Air, which has a well respected 60 year old seaplane flight school, typically have 10-15 hours SES time when they start their first season. It's been working well for us for decades.

Great, thanks!

Halestorm wrote:Instructors at Kenmore Air, which has a well respected 60 year old seaplane flight school, typically have 10-15 hours SES time when they start their first season. It's been working well for us for decades.

Is that how Kenmore's future pilots get their hours in so they can fly charters?
Years ago, Port Townsend Airways at my home airport used to do that-
new commercial / CFI pilots instructed until they hit the 500 hour mark,
at which time the insurance would cover them for air taxi ops.
About that time, there was another guy coming along in the pipeline behind them.

hotrod180 wrote:

Halestorm wrote:Instructors at Kenmore Air, which has a well respected 60 year old seaplane flight school, typically have 10-15 hours SES time when they start their first season. It's been working well for us for decades.

Is that how Kenmore's future pilots get their hours in so they can fly charters?
Years ago, Port Townsend Airways at my home airport used to do that-
new commercial / CFI pilots instructed until they hit the 500 hour mark,
at which time the insurance would cover them for air taxi ops.
About that time, there was another guy coming along in the pipeline behind them.

Yes, many Kenmore line pilots have come up this way. Majority of the flying is actually scheduled service but all line pilots fly charters on occasion as well.


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When I realized that upon passing my SES checkride, I also was "qualified" to instruct SES if I were to re-up my CFI/CFII, my reaction was "OMG, I wouldn't dare!" And I wouldn't, until I'd done a whole lot of practicing. Harkening back to when I first had my CFI, I had a few hundred hours in 172s, which were our training fleet. So I was super comfortable in either seat of a 172. But with my lowly amount of time in a 172 on floats, I'd want to be a whole lot more comfortable doing seaplane thingies before trying to teach anyone else to do them. How long would that take? I think it depends on the conditions and the pilot. I'm guessing that I'd feel better about it in another 10-15 hours, but that's just a guess.

Cary

Let's see.....a very low time CFI, with very low time SES.....what could possibly go wrong?

There is no magic number as far as hours in seaplanes is concerned. The real question is: Did your original SES instructor actually train you? Because I guarantee you that if you take this gig, some of your students WILL train you.

You said you're going to be operating in a river??? How much time do you have in moving water? Get a LOT before you start with students.

I'm not suggesting you don't take the job. Someone will, might as well be you. But, I can tell you that there are several really good reasons that seaplane insurance is so expensive.

I hope you got a really good bit of instruction before your checkride, as opposed to the usual five hours, and a gimme.

MTV

As the flight hours add up it's pretty easy to loose focus on the fact that a person can die, very quickly, while operating an aircraft. As an instructor, if your student gets injured or killed, it's pretty much on you. That's the sort of guilt that can ruin your life.

Less dramatic but also worth considering is the bent/sunk metal aspect. I don't know how you're wired, but I'm not the sort of person who would recover quickly from scuttling an airplane because I screwed up. Whatever reward I might get from any given flight job wouldn't compensate for that guilt.

I haven't bent any metal or killed any people while flying, but I've come damn close, on both accounts...all while chasing a dream job I really wasn't experienced enough to have, though I was qualified on paper and the employer was more than eager to hire me.

So I guess my response to your question would be that the number of hours isn't important. What's important is whether you truly believe you can compensate for any screw-up a student throws at you. If not, I'd recommend getting to that point before contemplating the work, or just turn your back on it and do something else.

Nothing you could possibly get out of the job can come close to compensating for what you stand to loose...be sure before you commit yourself.

For perspective, my former employer required that I have 50 hours SES before I could carry a passenger. Not instruct in the thing.....carry a passenger.

Should have been more.

MTV

Kenmore was great to work with! I did my entire CFI training in their C-180's. But my disclaimer was that I already had a bit of seaplane time beforehand. First class outfit!

mtv wrote: Let's see.....a very low time CFI, with very low time SES.....what could possibly go wrong? ....

The same thought for a low-time CFI with a brand new tailwheel endorsement,
who with 5 or 10 t/w hours under his belt decides he's ready to give tailwheel instruction.
A recipe for disaster.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: Let's see.....a very low time CFI, with very low time SES.....what could possibly go wrong? ....

The same thought for a low-time CFI with a brand new tailwheel endorsement,
who with 5 or 10 t/w hours under his belt decides he's ready to give tailwheel instruction.
A recipe for disaster.

Yep. But they're out there.

MTV

Thanks for all the thoughts. My concern was with being safe as well as actually offering a service to any potential students and I know I'm not at that point with 10 hours on floats. I understand there is a lot that can go wrong which is why I was curious what people considered a reasonable amount of float time would be prior to instructing. For closure, doesn't look like its gonna pan out anyways- using the C140 to build time would be uninsured and I'm not willing to open myself/family up to the risk using someone else's plane. Wish the opportunity came up 10 years ago.......

chedrick wrote:- using the C140 to build time would be uninsured and I'm not willing to open myself/family up to the risk using someone else's plane. Wish the opportunity came up 10 years ago.......

Get a borrower's policy. Should be pretty inexpensive for a 140 and a reasonable amount of liability.

Get a borrower's policy. Should be pretty inexpensive for a 140 and a reasonable amount of liability.[/quote]


I looked into it but having a hard time convincing the wife I need to spend more money to go play in a float plane....she just doesn't understand Really cant complain though, she's been good to me otherwise and some battles aren't worth fighting

Man, get the policy and fly the shit out of the 140. Wife will understand the first time you take her to a lake for a picnic. You have the opportunity to get float hours for low $$, do it. It'll lead to a job fast.

I went to Kenmore for my beaver checkout, I insisted on only experienced instructors so I ended up flying with their DO, Check Airman and CP for ten hours. Normally anytime I go somewhere and need an instructor (rental checkout) I ask for the least experienced so he can get hours, but this time I needed to be sure I could fly my beaver into rivers, confined lakes etc. I needed to be sure for myself I had as low a chance of bending metal and throwing my investment away.

That said, I went to Jack Brown's for my SES, I don't believe the instructor had a lot of hours, and I got my rating at 5 hours including checkride. My next SES flight was flying a 206 on straight floats from MN to AK, and three weeks later the same route in a 182 on straight floats, so I guess JB's training was fine.

Our flight training system is interesting, the majority of working CFIs are low time pilots teaching brand new pilots to build hours. That is what I did. And, while I think I may now be able to show students some tricks and tips that a brand new SES CFI couldn't, I believe OP could safely get students trained up to pass their SES checkride.

Headoutdaplane wrote:Man, get the policy and fly the shit out of the 140. Wife will understand the first time you take her to a lake for a picnic. You have the opportunity to get float hours for low $$, do it. It'll lead to a job fast.

Our flight training system is interesting, the majority of working CFIs are low time pilots teaching brand new pilots to build hours. That is what I did. And, while I think I may now be able to show students some tricks and tips that a brand new SES CFI couldn't, I believe OP could safely get students trained up to pass their SES checkride.

I agree on taking the guy up on his offer to use that plane. Short of buying one, that's as good as it gets.

I also agree on our "system" to a point. That point is fast water ops, actual confined areas, with obstacles, J hook takeoffs, etc....while heavy. I don't know of any see outfit that does that stuff. I did, both for work and training folks on floats. And that can be some spooky shit. And my plane wasn't insured....too spendy in AK.

MTV

Friend of mine got his seaplane rating and started flying floats at work. I asked him how he liked it. His response was it seemed easy, too easy, seemed like no big deal. I told him to keep alert because when he runs into real confined areas with contrary winds, or fast moving water, the change from no big deal to real big deal can be shockingly rapid...