caveat: I am not a rocket scientist, nor an aerodynamicist, sooo if you are and don't agree, maybe you can explain the flatter approach better.

But: Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Last night?

motoadve wrote:I was practicing with my instructor yesterday, and he made me come high and steep

Is this techinque the one you guys use?

Motodave, have you shown this thread to your instructor? If not, it might be helpful if the two of you sit down and go over it together, discuss what's being said, then make a plan to go fly based on what you're reading here. Some of this information might be new to him too, and it could be a good learning experience for both of you.

Gump

My instructor is not a Mt pilot, he has landed at relatively short fields but nothing less than 1500 ft grass runways.
He is stubborn and will not believe in anything said over the internet.

motoadve wrote:He is stubborn and will not believe in anything said over the internet.

Maybe time to find someone more open minded who will experiment with you and have some fun.

We have a ton of shit on this website that is plain wrong, but even more that is true and quite valuable. I have learn volumes.

"I have learn volumes."

Yeah. It shows.

Just ribbing you Zane!

Skystrider wrote:"I have learn volumes."

Yeah. It shows.

Just ribbing you Zane!

I talk like a caveman. That's nothing new.

Zane wrote:

Skystrider wrote:"I have learn volumes."

Yeah. It shows.

Just ribbing you Zane!

I talk like a caveman. That's nothing new.

You mean to tell us you ACTUALLY read volumes?...I just look at the pictures.

For a ticket to Costa Rico and expenses I'd be happy to come down and show ya some different approaches and shortfield technique.
I'd love to get back down there and do some flyin.
Gary

Have been practising a lot.
Short landings are consistent now and smooth, did 6 in a row 600ft (this one is with a shallow hill before final)
Did a couple yesterday in a narrow grass field with a nice approach.
I came at 55mph IAS, reducing power for altitude and pitch for speed, what I get is when I reduce power to loose altitude the nose drop and I gain a bit of speed so when I approach at 55mph I end up at 60mph doing the flare.
Landings are very smooth but could be shorter.

Whats the trick to loose alt but keep the same speed?I tried to pull the yoke and what happens is airspeed is reduced and alt maintained.

motoadve wrote:Whats the trick to loose alt but keep the same speed?I tried to pull the yoke and what happens is airspeed is reduced and alt maintained.

The "trick" is your trim wheel. The more you use it, the better you learn it, the more stable your approaches. If you're not trimmed properly, just a few ounces of more/less pressure on the yoke can make a huge difference in your airspeed. Then you're chasing needles, airspeed, and energy.

Gump

The trim wheel I always have it full aft on short final ,for a lighter nose feel in the 182.
Unless I have people on the back seats , but Im practising solo, with an instructor or other friend so always 1 or 2 people max on the plane, half fuel, so it is quite light.

Slow flight is 3O to 40 mph IAS and keeps level flight , stall horn making its sound.
At 50mph IAS feels solid so at 55mph IAS power on It feels like a safe approach.

There is no one technique. But airspeed management is really the key here. You can very safely beat the landing performance numbers in the 182 manual by flying 65mph on approach (fully loaded). I've watched 8mph instantly disappear multiple times on short final passing Rush into Taylor Ranch or evenings at Soldier Bar. A 60mph, your options will simply go away in a hurry every once in a while. There is very little difference in distance used between 60 and 65 mph if you know how to bleed it fast- and the forward slip does exactly that in about three seconds (and 200 feet), with no change to attitude, power, etc. A stabilized, power off approach gives you a lot of excess HP to add when you need it. The slip removes energy when you need to even faster. There is no danger of a cross-controlled stall when you start out at 65- my 182 doesn't even shudder until I'm under 50 mph indicated with the controls fully crossed, and you only use a fraction of that to whack off a lot of speed in a flash.

For nose heavy flare situations (particularly solo in a 182), I use full *down* trim on a short field approach with 100% success. You simply have to deal with *a lot* of wheel pressure that way in a 182. That little extra trim tab deflection is actually very significant, allowing a lot more flare, and keeps the nose wheel completely off the ground on roll out until the airspeed needle can no longer even register. In a 172, the pressures are lighter, and you can do a wheelie down to about a fast bike ride speed. You can grease virtually every light wind, maximum performance landing this way. With a passenger or two in the back, there is no need for this, of course, but when your mains touch, a few flicks of the trim wheel definitely help that nose wheel out. Try this at home first. Just remember to make sure you trim back to neutral before a takeoff...touch and go or otherwise.

I changed my Horton Cuff with VGs to Sportsman with VGs now.
Also removed the flap gap seals.

Things are easier now.
Easier to slow down, more stable approach at 5mph less speed than before, with enough elevator for the round of the landing, approach at 55 or 50 feels solid, where before the bottom of the plane felt falling from under me.
I have only practiced for 3 hrs but beaten all my short field landing records (take offs too).
And Im coming in high.

Lots of fun to fly with the Sportsman.

lesuther wrote:For nose heavy flare situations (particularly solo in a 182), I use full *down* trim on a short field approach with 100% success. You simply have to deal with *a lot* of wheel pressure that way in a 182. That little extra trim tab deflection is actually very significant, allowing a lot more flare, and keeps the nose wheel completely off the ground on roll out until the airspeed needle can no longer even register. In a 172, the pressures are lighter, and you can do a wheelie down to about a fast bike ride speed. You can grease virtually every light wind, maximum performance landing this way. With a passenger or two in the back, there is no need for this, of course, but when your mains touch, a few flicks of the trim wheel definitely help that nose wheel out. Try this at home first. Just remember to make sure you trim back to neutral before a takeoff...touch and go or otherwise.

I wouldnt dissagree with Gumps technique and I use it for busy airports, big patterns, and long approaches. I do use this trim tab technique most of the time in my empty 206s but I set it faired in with the elevator. Check it on the ground and note the indicatior position. You have to know your plane and be ready to muscle it around doing it this way. Go arounds are also much easier to a non event when not overtrimmed one way or the other.

I love my sportsman also. Had a guy and his family stop in at the Flying V Ranch today, C-180, 520, Sportsman, WingX, GarAeros, Big tail wheel, Big Mac on the front. Good looking plane and what I always wanted. Had to run my wifes 206 for work all day today with my little 600x6s throwing mud everywhere, I held my head low in front of the 180.

I rarely fly at sea level and I don't have cuffs on my 182 but 55 would be getting too slow and mushy if the wind quit me. My 182 likes a little power to hold up the heavy nose, mine has a three blade scimitar so it pushes a little extra. Having had some harsh landings trying to beat 500 feet, I now grease most of my landings under 1000 feet at 6000' msl and usually use 1.5 times my landing length to get out. The canard on the Peterson conversion would be fun for slow power off landings I think: http://www.katmai-260se.com/price.html

Here's the trick: stabilised.

Be stabilised and then you can adjust speed to hit your mark. The VSI should be pegged the whole way down. I'm not suggesting you stare at or even look at the VSI, but at first you can reference it to see if your doing it right.

Take your aiming point and make sure it doesn't move up or down on the wind screen. It should stay put, no movement. If it does that then you're stabilised. As for descent rate you want a 3 degree path. Take your ground speed, add a zero and divide by 2.

ie, if you come in at 60 kts add a zero and you get 600. Divide by 2 and you should descend at 300 fpm to maintain a 3 degree. If you're high notch it up and if you're low shallow out.

Like I said, you DO NOT want to be staring at the VSI. Look outside the whole time. In the beginning you can sneak a peek at it every now and again just to see how your doing.

Once you can get on glide and make it stable (remember that aiming point not moving) then you simply need to adjust speed to hit your mark. Fly at 1.3 Vref til over the numbers and then let it bleed to Vref in the flare. With practice you can time it to where you are out of lift right in the flare and the plane will fall out right on your mark.

Have fun.

Legal disclaimer; don't blame me if you screw it up.

Nosedragger wrote:I rarely fly at sea level and I don't have cuffs on my 182 but 55 would be getting too slow and mushy if the wind quit me.

Your Vref speed has nothing to do with altitude. The only concern when selecting what speed to fly is aircraft weight and flap configuration. I'm not sure if you were saying otherwise, but you mentioned sea level so I wasn't sure.

I've flown with guys who want to add speed when we land at high alt airports and I have to explain it to them also.

I don't change my speed to meet my touchdown point. I adjust my glide slope with my throttle once I have my final approach speed established and plane trimmed as I want it, to maintain final approach speed. Really don't want to change it(stabilized) until I am ready to flare. Don't really want to go any faster, or much slower.
Guess there are lots of ways of doing it. But that's how I do my stabilized approach.
Gary

GlassPilot wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:I rarely fly at sea level and I don't have cuffs on my 182 but 55 would be getting too slow and mushy if the wind quit me.

Your Vref speed has nothing to do with altitude. The only concern when selecting what speed to fly is aircraft weight and flap configuration. I'm not sure if you were saying otherwise, but you mentioned sea level so I wasn't sure.

I've flown with guys who want to add speed when we land at high alt airports and I have to explain it to them also.

Good point. IAS should be the same but TAS is going to be different. The big point though is don't come to the mountains expecting the same landing distance. I don't know if I remember correctly but I'm thinking add 3% for every 1000 feet you go up. If that's right, a landing at 8000' will add 24% to your landing distance at sea level.

shortfielder wrote:I don't change my speed to meet my touchdown point. I adjust my glide slope with my throttle once I have my final approach speed established and plane trimmed as I want it, to maintain final approach speed. Really don't want to change it(stabilized) until I am ready to flare. Don't really want to go any faster, or much slower.
Guess there are lots of ways of doing it. But that's how I do my stabilized approach.
Gary

Were you replying to me? I never suggested "changing your speed". I suggest doing exactly what you said, pitch for speed and use power to control descent rate.

If you weren't talking to me and were speaking to someone else then I apologize and disregard.