Hello! I live in the NYC area and am interested in getting some ski instruction this winter. I would like somewhere i could drive to, but I could also fly somewhere for a few days--preferably not too far a flight (e.g. not Alaska!).

Does anyone have any recommendations of a place where I could get good ski instruction?

Thanks!

Sent you a PM.
TR

I can't help with a local instructor but Mike Vivion has a excellent article on ski flying in the Knowledge area.
DENNY

I can’t give you instruction, but would be happy to take you up in the Champ, it performs similar to a J3. We generally have snow from early Dec- March. It is best after the lakes freeze enough to land on, usually late Dec, early Jan. I am about 4 hours north of you.

Pete

I didn't get any ski instruction (my instructor said I didn't need any) and it was fine. If anything it's easier than pavement. More about reading the snow and not getting froze down/stuck than anything. Probably not a lot of value in actually flying with an instructor for this.

Insurance company didn't require any transition either.

Ross4289 wrote:More about reading the snow and not getting froze down/stuck than anything.

Yes. Snow has so many different qualities/phases/conditions and the LZs where you encounter it are dynamic too—frozen lakes, etc. Learning about reading snow for overflow/slush, deep powder, and general winter ops is probably what a ski course should entail.

Where's MTV when you need him

Cheapest safest smartest ski plane training is a pair of cross country skis and daily trips around the lake you plan on operating from. If you’re slogging around out there on skis in the deep powder or slush or over flow or sweating balls and you tell yourself: this sucks then ski flying might not be for you.

Learning about overflow in a low powered cub with skinny ice skate skis will be a lot painful and perhaps vary expensive.

Now, if your a bit of a glutton for punishment don’t mind getting out and preheating in the dark and freezing your fingers and toes off, find fun in hauling Jerry jugs of gas around and all that entails, if the thought of that and more doesn’t scare you off then be prepared to be rewarded a part of aviation few experience, rare sights, facing challenges with true reward, then dig in, you know, with a good snow shovel!

I never did get any instruction, got lucky a few times, kept my mouth shut and listened a lot to other ski pilots, and asked a lot of questions.

Oh ya, 160hp tripacer, yep three skis, wing extensions, and 82” prop. No VGs, too much of a fuck with wing covers. EarthX lith/iron battery for sure.

Rocket

The reason to get good ski instruction is you don't know what you don't know!! That will come back to bite you and being stranded in snow as night is falling is a really bad way to learn. Ya ski flying is about as simple as it gets until it isn't.
DENNY

Wow! Thanks for all your suggestions. Pete, I may take you up on your offer. I like the idea of skiing on the landing zone! I don't really like the cold so much, so maybe not for me!!!

I made a bunch of calls to schools that listed (or had listed) ski instruction, but none of them still instruct! Maybe too short and too unpredictable a season to be profitable. But I think there's a market there is someone wants to open up and school and doesn't mind losing some money!!!

My CFI said there was no need for ski instruction if you are familiar with winter snow and flat light. With me having over 50 years experience with snow maching (AKA snowmobile riding for you southern folks) this was correct advice for me. On lakes the killer is overflow, plowed ice road, snowmachine berms (especially in overflowed areas where they freeze into ice berms) that you can't see in flat light.

Without winter snow experience, it will take more than a winter season to learn most of the hazzards. Landing a tail dragger with skis on good snow is easier than landing it on wheels. The problem is knowing the snow that your landing on is suitable. Dragging the LZ and circling back helps to show some but not all over flow problems.

Be careful if you get a CFI to give you training and he tells you that you are good to go unless you have significant experence cross-country skiing or snowmachining.

I thought about this a little more and even though I didn’t get any ski instruction I did fly with many of the best floatplane pilots on AK out west, the gent who was brave enough to sign me off, shame I don’t recall his name but he flew for TRA out of hood some twenty five years ago, made sure I was well grounded and demonstrated the basics to let me solo.

We’re gonna go to figure eight lake right?, I asked. Hell no, If your going to do something stupid I want it to happen here at Lake Hood so everyone and doG can see it… I soloed on floats in my pa-22 one perfect May evening.

So flat light landing on skis is much like a glassy water landing on floats, and much like a floatplane there are no brakes to slow you down and turning on skis is nothing like maneuvering on the tarmac.

Like I mentioned upthread it’s a lot of work to fly off the snow and ice but it’s worth it all!

Dogday wrote:Be careful if you get a CFI to give you training and he tells you that you are good to go unless you have significant experence cross-country skiing or snowmachining.

This.

I have 100 hours playing around on skis in Alaska. I put some memories on it in the "Cub Skis" thread that I won't duplicate here. The concept of flying a ski plane on a groomed strip isn't hard once you figure out how to stop, how to use the tailwheel as a brake in snow, and so on.

But the challenge of ski flying is surface condition. Is it packed? Deep powder? Overflow? Smooth or hard-packed drifts? And then there's the challenge of pre-heating, wing covers, and turning a ski plane in a tight spot without bending something. Finally, the cold weather and limited daylight associated with ski flying turns any unplanned event into a potential survival situation.

I used to know a CFI in Alaska that refused to allow students to use the heat in the aircraft. If you need it you aren't wearing enough clothes, he said. It depends on where you're flying, but make sure you're dressed to egress and have appropriate gear. I had about 50 pounds of stuff when I was doing it, to include basic camping gear plus an engine cover, preheater, snow shoes, a small snow shovel, and a way to tie the airplane down if I had to overnight.

I would definitely look for some instruction, and then read everything you can about it. And start slow. I had so much fun flying skis those three winters and wish you all the best! It'll be worth it.

rocket wrote:Cheapest safest smartest ski plane training is a pair of cross country skis and daily trips around the lake you plan on operating from.

I think this is the best advice yet. Go explore on snowshoes or skis and see the workings of ice and snow up close.

Someone else mentioned plow ridges. When you plow snow, it agitated and settles. If there's any temp upswing and it softens, then refreezes, you get this refrozen nasty hard ridge that can be a big surprise to an airplane. Or anyone or anything on skis. Imagine hitting a big speed bump.

That's what's so neat, and maybe risky, about the winter environment. It's dynamic and variable and requires the experience to read it, or enough knowledge to know when to not stick your toe in.

Zzz wrote:

rocket wrote:Cheapest safest smartest ski plane training is a pair of cross country skis and daily trips around the lake you plan on operating from.

I think this is the best advice yet. Go explore on snowshoes or skis and see the workings of ice and snow up close.

Someone else mentioned plow ridges. When you plow snow, it agitated and settles. If there's any temp upswing and it softens, then refreezes, you get this refrozen nasty hard ridge that can be a big surprise to an airplane. Or anyone or anything on skis. Imagine hitting a big speed bump.

That's what's so neat, and maybe risky, about the winter environment. It's dynamic and variable and requires the experience to read it, or enough knowledge to know when to not stick your toe in.

Wow, seriously? What words do not belong in that statement? (CHEAPEST, SAFEST, SMARTEST) Can't wait to hear the advice for float instruction, waterski around the lake? Tailwheel instruction, go ride your kids tricycle backwards? Perception is reality until proven otherwise...The OP asks for availability of obtaining instruction in a specific skill set. What he gets in return is input not asked for on why he doesn't need said instruction to begin with. The perception I obtain from this dialog is Joe BOD (bag o donuts) leaning against his steed of choice and spitting his chaw on the hangar floor after stating said opinion. Personally, I commend the OP for reaching out to gain knowledge before striking out on his own. I could go into a long-winded diatribe on the merits of obtaining quality ski instruction from a highly experienced operator, however, it is not my objective to lure the naysayers over to my camp, I prefer to spend my time with the folks already there. Nor will I slip in my resume' as so many posters do as if that validates their opinions. I believe what you state should stand on its merit as opposed to having to prop up your statement with the fact you are a (aerial applicator/airline capt/commercial float operator, etc.). This is called good old ass-shining or chest thumping. Your statements should bring credibility to your profession, as opposed to using your profession to boost your credibility. Check the ego at the door, if your statement is not value added, nor can it stand on its own merit, its better left unsaid. DENNY stated one of my most commonly used expressions in instructing; "You don't know what you don't know". The responses to this post reenforce my decision to PM the OP for suggestions to his question. TR
For those that believe they "don't need no stinkin' instruction"..."Learn of the skillful; he that teaches himself, has a fool for his master" ~ Benjamin Franklin

Transitioning to tailwheel or floats is completely different than going to skis.

Ross4289 wrote:Transitioning to tailwheel or floats is completely different than going to skis.

Really? thanks for pointing that out, It's called sarcasm with a bit of facetious thrown in.

TR wrote:

Zzz wrote:

rocket wrote:Cheapest safest smartest ski plane training is a pair of cross country skis and daily trips around the lake you plan on operating from.

I think this is the best advice yet. Go explore on snowshoes or skis and see the workings of ice and snow up close.

Someone else mentioned plow ridges. When you plow snow, it agitated and settles. If there's any temp upswing and it softens, then refreezes, you get this refrozen nasty hard ridge that can be a big surprise to an airplane. Or anyone or anything on skis. Imagine hitting a big speed bump.

That's what's so neat, and maybe risky, about the winter environment. It's dynamic and variable and requires the experience to read it, or enough knowledge to know when to not stick your toe in.

Wow, seriously? What words do not belong in that statement? (CHEAPEST, SAFEST, SMARTEST) Can't wait to hear the advice for float instruction, waterski around the lake? Tailwheel instruction, go ride your kids tricycle backwards? Perception is reality until proven otherwise...The OP asks for availability of obtaining instruction in a specific skill set. What he gets in return is input not asked for on why he doesn't need said instruction to begin with. The perception I obtain from this dialog is Joe BOD (bag o donuts) leaning against his steed of choice and spitting his chaw on the hangar floor after stating said opinion. Personally, I commend the OP for reaching out to gain knowledge before striking out on his own. I could go into a long-winded diatribe on the merits of obtaining quality ski instruction from a highly experienced operator, however, it is not my objective to lure the naysayers over to my camp, I prefer to spend my time with the folks already there. Nor will I slip in my resume' as so many posters do as if that validates their opinions. I believe what you state should stand on its merit as opposed to having to prop up your statement with the fact you are a (aerial applicator/airline capt/commercial float operator, etc.). This is called good old ass-shining or chest thumping. Your statements should bring credibility to your profession, as opposed to using your profession to boost your credibility. Check the ego at the door, if your statement is not value added, nor can it stand on its own merit, its better left unsaid. DENNY stated one of my most commonly used expressions in instructing; "You don't know what you don't know". The responses to this post reenforce my decision to PM the OP for suggestions to his question. TR
For those that believe they "don't need no stinkin' instruction"..."Learn of the skillful; he that teaches himself, has a fool for his master" ~ Benjamin Franklin

So you're saying he should get some cross country skiing dual instruction?

Zzz wrote:

TR wrote:

Zzz wrote:

rocket wrote:Cheapest safest smartest ski plane training is a pair of cross country skis and daily trips around the lake you plan on operating from.

I think this is the best advice yet. Go explore on snowshoes or skis and see the workings of ice and snow up close.

Someone else mentioned plow ridges. When you plow snow, it agitated and settles. If there's any temp upswing and it softens, then refreezes, you get this refrozen nasty hard ridge that can be a big surprise to an airplane. Or anyone or anything on skis. Imagine hitting a big speed bump.

That's what's so neat, and maybe risky, about the winter environment. It's dynamic and variable and requires the experience to read it, or enough knowledge to know when to not stick your toe in.

Wow, seriously? What words do not belong in that statement? (CHEAPEST, SAFEST, SMARTEST) Can't wait to hear the advice for float instruction, waterski around the lake? Tailwheel instruction, go ride your kids tricycle backwards? Perception is reality until proven otherwise...The OP asks for availability of obtaining instruction in a specific skill set. What he gets in return is input not asked for on why he doesn't need said instruction to begin with. The perception I obtain from this dialog is Joe BOD (bag o donuts) leaning against his steed of choice and spitting his chaw on the hangar floor after stating said opinion. Personally, I commend the OP for reaching out to gain knowledge before striking out on his own. I could go into a long-winded diatribe on the merits of obtaining quality ski instruction from a highly experienced operator, however, it is not my objective to lure the naysayers over to my camp, I prefer to spend my time with the folks already there. Nor will I slip in my resume' as so many posters do as if that validates their opinions. I believe what you state should stand on its merit as opposed to having to prop up your statement with the fact you are a (aerial applicator/airline capt/commercial float operator, etc.). This is called good old ass-shining or chest thumping. Your statements should bring credibility to your profession, as opposed to using your profession to boost your credibility. Check the ego at the door, if your statement is not value added, nor can it stand on its own merit, its better left unsaid. DENNY stated one of my most commonly used expressions in instructing; "You don't know what you don't know". The responses to this post reenforce my decision to PM the OP for suggestions to his question. TR
For those that believe they "don't need no stinkin' instruction"..."Learn of the skillful; he that teaches himself, has a fool for his master" ~ Benjamin Franklin

So you're saying he should get some cross country skiing dual instruction?

As a skilled black diamond skier working at Mammoth back in the day, lift crew to a ski in to chair4 off of dragons back, I would get a day off and almost always take an advanced class, it was free for employees, I would learn a few things and would improve my sking every time.

After the moose got me I’m just no getting back into some BC skiing but I’ve some issues with muscle strength in my damaged leg. Thinking next time I get to anchorage I’ll hook up with an instructor and see if I can get my shit back together.

Of course training is vital, if the OP had said he had a few years of snow/winter activity I wouldn’t have mentioned getting out on XC skis.

What I found is I had a lot of non typical experiences that helped me make good decisions while flying ski planes up here in AK and much of that was BC sking in the same areas lakes and rivers I would later fly off of and land.

Had just spent two winters landing up on Denali’s glaciers, three years of flying around the mountain before that, but that f’n moose put a stop to it all…

rocket wrote:
What I found is I had a lot of non typical experiences that helped me make good decisions while flying ski planes up here in AK and much of that was BC sking in the same areas lakes and rivers I would later fly off of and land.

Hell, yes. Exactly this.

When I read the previous recommendations, I didn't see anyone suggesting that there's no value in ski instruction. What I saw was a suggestion that more time on snow is of great value. Absolutely.

I'm still relatively new to ski flying, but I've been playing in the snow for 45 years. Was a ski instructor for six years and have been backcountry skiing for 20+ years. That knowledge of snow dynamics has helped immeasurably as I've learned to fly on skis. Snow comes in so many varieties and textures, and without that visceral, hands-on experience, it would be hard to impart the importance of such nuances to a ski flying student.

Well said.