Backcountry Pilot • SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!! - Updated

SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!! - Updated

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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

z3skybolt wrote:Folks,

Are we men or mice?


This is the first "pushback" I've seen on the SPOTS, PLB'S and the like. I have nothing, other then the old Pointer ELT. I want a PLB, I think. I said this last year also.... my fear is, I guess, that when I am making those last minute decisions as to whether or not to push that weather a little, or how high to clear the upcoming ridge, if I know I have the PLB I may push it a bit more. Now, I know it's all up to me, for better or for worse. I don't wear a helmet when mountain biking or snowboarding for somewhat the same reasons, though every season I talk about buying one. I for sure don't have a problem with those who do, I mean it obviously makes perfect sense to take advantage of the technology out there, and my opinion would change I'm sure after a mishap that may have been helped by one of these devices.

I am single, take off for days at a time with no one knowing what the hell, and have gotten used to that personal responsibility, and when I make that final landing at the home strip (safe once again) I have to think it's more rewarding then filing flight plans, SPOTTING, etc. You married guys??? It's a no brainer, a gotta have, and a way to let the old lady cut you loose while still keeping a handle on you, meowwwwww!
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

This may be a bit off topic... but here goes. I downloaded an app. recently onto the phone called SkyCharts Pro. It was a whopping $19 bucks.
I'm not sure how it determines position of the aircraft when there is no cell signal, but it seems to possibly mix the use of tower triangulation and also the crude gps in the i phone. Anyway, after you put in a departure airport ID, a space, and a destination airport.... it displays your position on a sectional chart. All of this was pretty much what I expected. What I did not expect was the email I received when I got home.
It said position updated. Gave a web address to link to. Low and behold, there was my flight (with breadcrumbs) on a map. Each time I have activated the app, it has sent a new email. (now where did it get my address... mystery to me, since I don't use the phone for email).
So, for all intents and purposes.... it is a spot device for 19 bucks. And a moving map gps with time to destination and ground speed readout. And displays low alt. enroute charts as well as TAC charts for the cities you select.
So, you guys with i phones, might check it out.
I also fly with a Trac Plus, iridium tracker that spits out position every two minutes... but that is big bucks.... and is just part of my job.
Might be some better alternatives to SPOT out there to let people know where your plane is. (presuming you are somewhat nearby as well.)
Cheers.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

I also saw something on the web about an app for a blackberry that uses GPS satellites to send your location. For those with high tech phones there may be cheaper and less frustrating devices than SPOT. Also, I don't know that the Gen 2 SPOT is a real improvement, according to the tests I've read done by Doug Ritter. If getting in touch with loved ones is really important, I highly recommend a sat phone. Used you can get them for $500-$600. And buying the per minute plans isn't that costly if you don't use them a lot.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

The program you're talking about is GPS Tracker. I posted about it here about a month ago but here's an overview again. You install the program on your Android, iPhone or Blackberry. You sign up for an account with the company, all of this doesn't cost you a nickel. Then when you are flying you put the phone up on the panel and leave it with the program running. You can set the program to send it's position at what ever time interval you choose. It defaults to every 20 seconds which is way overkill for my purposes but allows someone to follow you on the street. I have it set to every 3 minutes. Anybody watching at home is given a link and the positions are put onto a Google map just like a SPOT does and automatically updates at what ever rate was set on the phone. I flew to the Missouri River Breaks last weekend for the workparty and here's what that looks like after the fact.

http://tinyurl.com/2dprvt9

This program uses the GPS in the phone and sends the data thru the cell phone system. You have to have coverage for the data to get thru. Notice that not one single report was missed even though I was not that high and when you are in the breaks you are approx 50 miles from a town. Click on any of the yellow points to get the information from that point.
Another option for tracking is for those of us with Android phones Google Maps has a tracking feature called Latitude. Simply turn it on and anybody you give your information too will always know exactly where you are in real time. This program however does save your positions so they can be viewed later.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Well bummer on the needing cell phone coverage to work for the phone applications. Up north cell coverage is about non-existent.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

I'd been playing around w/ the free ap InstaMapper and am impressed. I put the ap on my BB, it's ping rate is adjustable, and it overlays your route on google maps. It'll show speed and elevation and if you have the ping rate set high enough, it makes some neat designs when you're doing touch 'n goes. If you don't have phone signal it'll still find your gps location, store it, then send it in when you do. You can also set it up to show your route not only on the password protected website but also on your facebook page.
instamapper.com
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Rhyppa wrote:Well bummer on the needing cell phone coverage to work for the phone applications. Up north cell coverage is about non-existent.



You would be surprised, as long as you have Verizon. Northern Minnesota is not more remote than north central Montana. Give it a try.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Zero Verizon in NE Minnesota where I live and points north, its ATT or nothing. Verizon has very very few towers. Even At&t is hit and miss, mostly miss. Our cell service up here has to be some of the worst in the nation. All the cell coverage maps they show are make believe up here. Actually wasn't talking about wanting tracking in northern MN but was referring to NW Ontario NE Manitoba from the border on up towards Red Lake, Hudson Bay and beyond.. My use would be in far more remote locations than northern MN. Primarily why I have the sat phone and PLB. The only reason for tracking for me would be assuming the 406 in the plane doesn't go off AND I am unable to active my PLB. Not an impossible situation to imagine in a takeoff off or landing mishap especially on floats where the plane could end up upside down in water. Otherwise I can call home on sat phone to report in. Tried two different brand new SPOT units, and they were simply unreliable. I returned both, and now have 2 new unused SPOTS at home as replacements. I made the personal decision they were worse than nothing at all since someone could expect a message that SPOT would be unable to deliver. I was hoping the phone apps somehow used GPS satellites to transmit their location and not just pinpoint it. I want to find out what the SHOUT subscription fees are. I'm willing to pay more for a quality unit up front if I know it will work and the subscription rates aren't too intense. I have no doubt SHOUT will perform flawlessly based on my Iridium experience. I travel a lot with one or both of my young children across remote NW Ontario, and Momma at home sure likes a daily report. If for some reason we couldn't place a call, such as mechanical failure of sat phone or battery worn out, it would be good if she could get an OK message or look at a map to see our location. You can't put a price on keeping momma happy.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Hey Matt,
You may have a defective unit but I had similar issues when I first got my SPOT.
First of all it is a must for the unit to be in the clear open sky for 20 min. prior to use in order to sync with the satellite.
I usually turn mine on prior to pre-flight and place it on the nose of the aircraft with a clear view of the sky for 20 min. However it can be on the dash where you would place it during flight.
Tracking mode is achieved by holding the OK button for a slow count of 20! you should see both lights blinking.
To get an OK message sent I have to turn my unit off in order to get it out of tracking mode.
Then turn the unit back on and let it sit for in open view of sky for 10 min. I usually wait until I have finished tie down and all the other stuff, prior to locking the doors I push the OK button for a slow count of 5.
I have my cell # as a contact # for the OK message so I know it went through. you can do this on the web site.
Practice with the OK until you are confident that it works consistently with the method described then when you fly try the tracking method I mentioned.
Bill
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Green Hornet wrote:Tracking mode is achieved by holding the OK button for a slow count of 20! you should see both lights blinking.
To get an OK message sent I have to turn my unit off in order to get it out of tracking mode.
Then turn the unit back on and let it sit for in open view of sky for 10 min. I usually wait until I have finished tie down and all the other stuff, prior to locking the doors I push the OK button for a slow count of 5.
I have my cell # as a contact # for the OK message so I know it went through. you can do this on the web site.
Practice with the OK until you are confident that it works consistently with the method described then when you fly try the tracking method I mentioned.
Bill


I have a first generation SPOT. Tracking mode needs the button held down for 5 seconds so I use 6 to make sure. If you come up short you just end up sending an OK message. To send an Ok I simply hold it down for about 2 seconds.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

z3skybolt wrote:Mountianmatt:,

You have earned my apologies. I understand your legitimate concern. It's just that I always wondered how our forefather's braved the world without all this "techie" help. Cris Columbus got so lost that he found the New World. Lewis and Clark were gone "up the Missouri" for a couple of years, without even a carrier pigeon. Lucky Lindy did it all by his lonesome: my uncles went to war and were not heard from for months at a time, Navy task forces of scores of ships, roamed the Pacific for days at a time, without being in contact with anyone, during WW-2. My desire has always been to be more like them than like us.


Bob I just had to tack on. I wholeheartedly understand the techy overload and addiction you're describing. In defense of the PLB, I suspect that back in "the day" many of people who did the risky stuff, especially the solo guys, eventually had some horrific adventures or went MIA. Some of the adventurers who did not became famous.

I personally explore remote areas often with just me and my 10 year-old, so the SPOT adds a layer of security that makes doing these trips much less risky to her should something happen to me.

FYI I think SPOT spends waaayyy too much $$$ on marketing and too little device function and customer service. Many of us will speak with our dollars when ACR has a comparable and more reliable device. Have fun and fly safe.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

SixTwoLeemer wrote:
z3skybolt wrote:And to who ever asked....yes I am married, to the greatest woman on earth and have five adult children. Diane is pretty as can be, supports me in all my crazy shenanigans, never gives me a "honey do" list, doesn't nag, I cook and she cleans up....best of all she has even learned to enjoy hiking/backpacking and camping in the wilds of southern, Utah's canyonland.

Bob


Bob,

I still read your report about flying around the perimeter of the country with your son in the Maule. I have it saved on my laptop and sometimes find myself on a 13 hr. leg in the Gulfstream bored to tears and re-read it to knock out some time. I admire how you speak about your wife and family and friends along the way. You should share it here again someday, theres a lot of new faces browsing around. We'd love to see some photos as well if you ever get the time. Are you still toiling around Natural Bridges??

Take care-



sixtwoleemer,

Thanks for your kind comments. I could repost the story/diary I guess. Just figured that might be overdoing it a bit. Glad to know that you enjoyed it....nice to know that the story has traveled all over the world with you. I looked at your photo gallery and see that you have a couple of young sons. Enjoy them all you can for as long as you can. They grow up so fast.

Wow....13 hour flights in the Gulfstream? I couldn't stay awake. :lol: Avoided international(other than Canada/Mexico/Caribbean) all my career. Flew westbound transcons a lot...just over 7 hours on occassion.

My wife and I just got back from Natural Bridges. Absolutely loved it there. 37 miles to the nearest town, over a million acres of BLM and National Forest land surrounding us. Solitude, absolute silence, fabulous sunrises/sunsets, incredible canyons and the darkest skies in the lower 48. We hiked/backpacked over 200 miles and camped many nights during our 3 days off each week. Already talking about going back next year.

Happy contrails...

Bob
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

emwhiteman wrote:FYI I think SPOT spends waaayyy too much $$$ on marketing and too little device function and customer service. Many of us will speak with our dollars when ACR has a comparable and more reliable device. H


I wholeheartedly agree. Having been on the retail side of this industry, there is one single tenet for success, and that is good customer service and standing behind the product. It will see a company through the temporary SNAFU's and into long term success. The demographic most commonly associated with aviation simply does not tolerate poor customer service, and now that Internet forums are so prevalent, word spreads fast. Case in point, this thread.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Bonanza Man wrote:
Green Hornet wrote:Tracking mode is achieved by holding the OK button for a slow count of 20! you should see both lights blinking.
To get an OK message sent I have to turn my unit off in order to get it out of tracking mode.
Then turn the unit back on and let it sit for in open view of sky for 10 min. I usually wait until I have finished tie down and all the other stuff, prior to locking the doors I push the OK button for a slow count of 5.
I have my cell # as a contact # for the OK message so I know it went through. you can do this on the web site.
Practice with the OK until you are confident that it works consistently with the method described then when you fly try the tracking method I mentioned.
Bill


I have a first generation SPOT. Tracking mode needs the button held down for 5 seconds so I use 6 to make sure. If you come up short you just end up sending an OK message. To send an Ok I simply hold it down for about 2 seconds.

I think it is relative to the unit and i also have the 1st gen. What you are doing is less than spelled out in the manual and my method is more but it works consistently. Do you have to turn yours off in order to shutdown tracking mode? If I don't mine remains in tracking mode until I turn it off and back on. It may have something to do with where you are located or the components are not of the same quality??Not sure but I figured I would let Matt know that in order to get mine to work this is what I do.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Green Hornet wrote: Do you have to turn yours off in order to shutdown tracking mode? If I don't mine remains in tracking mode until I turn it off and back on.



I almost never send an OK message so I don't know if I have to shut it down to send an OK. Since the program on my phone works so well I am not going to renew my tracking subscription.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

Thanks again for the help guys. I'll let you know how the SPOT 2 goes when it arrives, but I'm not holding my breath.

That ACR unit is nice Zane, if this doesn't work out I'll save a few more pennies and spend the $$$ on that.

I'll add the first email I received on April 28th explaining how to use SPOT OK and tracking messages. And believe me, I've tried every which way to get my current SPOT to work, no dice (it just makes me feel like I'm retarded).

Spot Customer Service <[email protected]>
to [email protected]
date Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:03 PM


To successfully send an OK message:

* Take SPOT outside with a clear view of the sky.
* Look around and make sure you are well away from any buildings or other tall obstructions that could block the transmission to the satellites.
* Turn SPOT on.
* It performs a self test every time you turn it on.

* Take note of what color the light is above the ON/OFF button.
o If it is blinking GREEN, then the batteries have more than 30% charge and is fully functional.
o If it is blinking RED, then the batteries are low…below 30%, and they should be replaced before leaving with it, or bring a second set along.
+ *When ON/OFF is blinking RED already < low batteries>, and a RED light appears above OK right after the time you press on any function (OK/HELP/911)
+ *The unit has failed self test due to very LOW batteries.
+ *Replace batteries first.
+ *If still blinking RED over OK, go to http://www.spotwarranty.com for details.

* Take note when you first turn it on, if the light above OK may start blinking RED, even though you have not yet pressed anything.
o A RED light above OK right at the time you power on means the unit has failed its self test and is defective.
o Visit http://www.spotwarranty.com for details.
* Press and release, DO NOT HOLD, the OK button to initiate the 20 minute OK cycle.
* The ON and OK lights will begin blinking together and will continue to do so for 11-20 minutes.
* If your SPOT is NOT able to acquire a GPS fix within 4 minutes, the OK and ON/OFF lights will begin blinking alternately instead of "in-sync".
o If this happens, move your SPOT to another location to attempt to get a better line of sight with the GPS satellites, the lights will return to "in-sync" within a minute or two.
* During the 20 minute OK cycle, you will see the OK light go solid for 5 seconds while it is actually transmitting a message to our satellites, this should happen 3 times, 5 minutes apart.
* This WILL NOT happen if there is no GPS fix and the lights will still be "out-of-sync".
* Only the first message received by the SPOT network is displayed in your Message list and transmitted to your OK contacts. Any other OK messages received by the network during that cycle are discarded as redundant.
* It is very important to let the OK cycle complete. Do not turn off your SPOT during the 20 minute OK cycle.
* OK cycles cannot be CANCELLED like other cycles. Powering off the unit is the only way to prematurely terminate and OK cycle.
* Pressing HELP and/or 911 WILL override the OK cycle.
* The OK cycle will not run together with any other cycle.

The OK message feature has a 99% success rate based on the fact that the device will transmit 3 times within the 20 minute time window however, the end user will only see one of these messages as other OK messages receieved by the network during that cycle are discarded as redundant.


And I've tried a few apps on my Droid (which has a stand alone GPS) and I guess I fly to low for it to be any good. It isn't bad, but it too is spotty and unreliable. Also, it sucks down the battery pretty quickly (12 hours max).
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

mountainmatt wrote:
And I've tried a few apps on my Droid (which has a stand alone GPS) and I guess I fly to low for it to be any good. It isn't bad, but it too is spotty and unreliable. Also, it sucks down the battery pretty quickly (12 hours max).


The key there is to plug it in while you are flying. My GPS is a Samsung Q1 computer so i just plug my phone into a USB port on that but otherwise you can use i cig lighter plug connection.
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

z3skybolt wrote:Folks,

Are we men or mice?
Bob


Bob - Being safe and taking sensible, technology-enabled precautions doesn't make one a pussy or a dilettante as you seem to suggest.

Last weekend I attended a presentation by the Civil Air Patrol at a joint New Mexico Pilot Association/FAA fly-in at Taos (KSKX). The principal point made by the CAP presenter was the "value of time" .. i.e., the time it takes to figure out a pilot is in trouble, and the time it takes to find the pilot and his/her passengers once authorities know they're in trouble.

The one graphic that brought it home showed the survival rate over the first 72 hours after an airplane crash or emergency landing in the backcountry. Keep in mind that if someone has two broken legs (your example) or other major body trauma, unless medical care is provided quickly most will die within the first several hours after the start of the incident - mostly due to shock. "The golden hour" is what it's called.

Anyway, the CAP presenter showed us data that said that 6 of 7 injured victims were dead within the first 24 hours. Even more surprising is that even if there is no trauma resulting directly from the airplane crash or emergency landing, after only 72 hours 13 out of 14 survivors, whether injured or not, don't survive. Hypothermia is the single largest cause of death for airplane crash victims in the backcountry ... ditto for other backcountry users like hikers, hunters, snowmobilers, etc.

Without an emergency notification beacon, it's likely that it will be many hours, if not days, before anyone even knows you're down, let alone have a reasonable chance of finding you and getting you emergency medical help. That's just too late for most survivors of air crashes or emergency landings in the backcountry.

The key is time. A plb or Spot tracker or 406 mhz ELT provides almost instantaneous notification to emergency responders that you have an issue. And an emergency beacon that is gps equipped provides a search area square that is only a few hundred yards on a side ... meaning that SAR can pinpoint you and there is a good chance they can be there with emergency medical services within the Golden Hour.

Finding your decayed remains days, weeks, months or even years later (a la Steve Fossett) - when you or your passengers could have survived - is a helluva price to pay for feeling "free".
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

nmflyguy,

May you never have need for the Spot....and may I never wish that I had one!

Have fun, be safe,

Bob
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Re: SPOT Tracker - I've just about had it!!!

nmflyguy wrote:Finding your decayed remains days, weeks, months or even years later (a la Steve Fossett) - when you or your passengers could have survived - is a helluva price to pay for feeling "free".


It is..

And for some the risk is not worth the reward. But for me, I'll take my chances thank you, and if I get myself into trouble I'll work at getting myself out.

Most days when I fly now I haven't a clue where I'm going until I get there. I wander. Doesn't mean I'm stupid or suicidal, as Plan B,C,D, and E is always locked and loaded for where to go or what to do if something breaks. But I'm with Bob in that I don't want to tell anyone where I'm going, I don't want to talk to anyone in order to get there, and it's nobody's business what I'm doing.

Will that attitude bite me in the ass someday? Maybe. In three weeks I'll have somehow managed to survive 40 years and a shitload of backcountry flying hours without a scratch. But, four weeks from now, I might be drying out into a skeleton in the desert too. Shit happens.

This country wasn't opened up and explored by men with SPOT's. The pioneer aviators didn't have ELT's and PLB's or navigate with GPS. Would they if they could have? Damn right they would. But they didn't, and they were willing to risk it all for the adventure and satisfaction in spite of the lack of safety and security. That same spirit is sadly lacking now days.

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