In your case, depending on where in Montana you're flying the yellow cub, I'd bet someone hopes you're the FWP plane out of Dillon and wants to chase you to the animals.
Honestly though I can't imagine what someone is thinking following a plane they haven't communicated with.
Too close, way too close
Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:21 pm
- poorpilotsuperman offline
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- Aircraft: Stinson 108-3
Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:47 am
Re: Too close, way too close
PapernScissors wrote:Just received this from the NTSB. The Board doesn't have a lot of confidence in See'n Avoid. FWIW, neither do I.
------######--------------######-------
NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD ADVOCACY UPDATE
Midair Collision Highlights Limitations of
See-and-Avoid Concept, Benefits of Collision Avoidance Technologies
Earlier this week, the Board met to discuss its findings related to the midair collision involving two airplanes, a float-equipped de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver operated by Mountain Air Service, and a float-equipped de Havilland DHC-3 Otter, operated by Taquan Air, in Ketchikan, Alaska, on May 13, 2019. The DHC-2 pilot and four passengers sustained fatal injuries. The DHC-3 pilot sustained minor injuries, nine passengers sustained serious injuries, and one passenger sustained fatal injuries. Both aircraft were operating under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 135 as on-demand sightseeing flights.
What We Found...
The midair collision was caused by the inherent limitations of the see-and-avoid concept, which prevented the two pilots from seeing the other airplane before the collision, and the absence of visual and aural alerts from both airplanes’ traffic display systems, while operating in a geographic area with a high concentration of air tour activity.
Advocacy takeaway...
Midair collisions accounted for about 7 percent of Part 135 air tour operators' fatal accidents between 1982 and 2020, more than three times the percentage of fatal midair collisions for all other aviation operations in the U.S. This accident highlights how technology, such as cockpit displays of traffic information with traffic alerting, can mitigate the risk of such collisions. The use of ADS-B Out- and In-supported traffic advisory systems with aural and visual alerts, for example, can help mitigate this risk by supplementing pilots’ traffic scans and alerting them to other nearby aircraft.
We made specific recommendations to aviation industry groups encouraging them to inform their members about the circumstances of this accident and encourage operators to take the following actions:
Become familiar with the traffic display equipment installed in their aircraft;
Encourage pilots/operators to supplement the equipment with devices that provide both an aural and visual alert if their equipment does not provide an aural alert concerning proximate targets that might pose a collision threat; and
Remind pilots to include the traffic display when scanning for traffic through the aircraft’s windows.
Air tour operators need to somehow “isolate” pilots from customers. Too many distractions from passengers. I have had some experience with that, an the “pilot isolate” function is essential, but not the whole answer. I’m not sure even aural warnings would overcome this. Too many outfits are using the pilot as guide. And everybody goes to the same places.
MTV
Sun May 02, 2021 12:34 pm
Re: Too close, way too close
People are really odd on the radio when it comes to private GA.
It’s like they announce but don’t listen or converse
I’ll be flying and hear
“BFE traffic, Cessna Skyhawk SP on a extended 45 to the downwind for 24, BFE traffic”
Me:
“BFE traffic, this is pilatus 123, Cessna on the extended 45, how far out are you from the field? I’m 8 miles south inbound at 2000”
Cessna
“BFE traffic, Cessna skyhawk sp will be on a extended 45 to downwind for 24, BFE traffic”
Same aircraft will make radio calls for every movement they do while taxing though.
It’s like they say too much, except for what you actually need to know, and can’t do two way communication with other planes.
At least that’s been my experience.
It’s like they announce but don’t listen or converse
I’ll be flying and hear
“BFE traffic, Cessna Skyhawk SP on a extended 45 to the downwind for 24, BFE traffic”
Me:
“BFE traffic, this is pilatus 123, Cessna on the extended 45, how far out are you from the field? I’m 8 miles south inbound at 2000”
Cessna
“BFE traffic, Cessna skyhawk sp will be on a extended 45 to downwind for 24, BFE traffic”
Same aircraft will make radio calls for every movement they do while taxing though.
It’s like they say too much, except for what you actually need to know, and can’t do two way communication with other planes.
At least that’s been my experience.
- NineThreeKilo offline
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Tue May 04, 2021 7:35 pm
Tue May 04, 2021 9:30 pm
Re: Too close, way too close
I had a pipeline that went by Purdue University but I avoided landing there because of flight school traffic. When weather or light of day didn't cooperate, I just hung out at 200' and waited for an opening. If I were a jet coming into heavy slow traffic, I would think it safest to hang out high for the same reason. Bad mix in either case. I was same size piston airplane, but up through and then down through didn't appeal to me. Who wants to by George have their place in confused traffic?
- contactflying offline
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Wed May 05, 2021 9:44 am
Re: Too close, way too close
contactflying wrote:.... When weather or light of day didn't cooperate, I just hung out at 200' and waited for an opening..... Who wants to by George have their place in confused traffic?
I'm sure "hanging out" nearby at 200', NORDO no doubt, didn't confuse or goof up anyone else.
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Wed May 05, 2021 10:20 am
Re: Too close, way too close
Yes, it was confusing for other pilots when I first used the radio to report my position low on the pipeline near the uncontrolled airport. So I developed the technique of staying quiet and thereafter bothered only one in ten thousand hours. I simply gave way and landed behind the last one. Airplanes below one are very hard to pick out. I learned that a pipeline patrol giving a position report only got pilots looking for an airplane they were very unlikely to locate, thus disrupting their observation of airplanes that were actually traffic.
At tower fields, also at 200' but now in contact with tower, higher airplanes with TCAS have often been advised by tower when they complain, "He is fifty feet off the trees. He is not traffic." Anyway, it works best not to confuse airplanes in normal traffic looking for helicopters and airplanes that are not getting in the way of normal traffic. We used the radio in Hueys but airplane pilots expected us to not use the normal traffic pattern.
There are areas where common sense rather than regulations work best. That is probably why the FAA has elected, all these years, not to try to control uncontrolled fields beyond advisories and suggestions. Wait, the one rule is see and avoid. For those of us too low to be seen, the avoid part is very, very important. Again, why would anyone want to insist on their place in confused traffic?
At tower fields, also at 200' but now in contact with tower, higher airplanes with TCAS have often been advised by tower when they complain, "He is fifty feet off the trees. He is not traffic." Anyway, it works best not to confuse airplanes in normal traffic looking for helicopters and airplanes that are not getting in the way of normal traffic. We used the radio in Hueys but airplane pilots expected us to not use the normal traffic pattern.
There are areas where common sense rather than regulations work best. That is probably why the FAA has elected, all these years, not to try to control uncontrolled fields beyond advisories and suggestions. Wait, the one rule is see and avoid. For those of us too low to be seen, the avoid part is very, very important. Again, why would anyone want to insist on their place in confused traffic?
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Thu May 06, 2021 8:03 am
Re: Too close, way too close
You might be surprised what the other pilots see.
We used to have a guy around here with a homebuilt Rotorway helicopter.
Quite often, he'd approach the airport (rwy 9/27) from the south, drop down to ground level just inside the trees surrounding the airport,
then hover there....or maybe not, sometimes he'd just dart across the runway.
Didn't matter if someone else was landing or taking off.
No radio calls, no nothing, and totally impossible to predict.
It woulda really been nice, and a lot safer, if he'd followed some sort of standard procedure,
and also let everyone else know what he was doing.
We used to have a guy around here with a homebuilt Rotorway helicopter.
Quite often, he'd approach the airport (rwy 9/27) from the south, drop down to ground level just inside the trees surrounding the airport,
then hover there....or maybe not, sometimes he'd just dart across the runway.
Didn't matter if someone else was landing or taking off.
No radio calls, no nothing, and totally impossible to predict.
It woulda really been nice, and a lot safer, if he'd followed some sort of standard procedure,
and also let everyone else know what he was doing.
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Thu May 06, 2021 9:30 am
Re: Too close, way too close
I have tried both ways and from replies when I called, I know I was not seen most of the time. And not being seen caused repeated calls when I had pipeline right of way to look at and they had traffic that could affect them to look at. I was creating a dangerous situation by calling.
On the other hand, there was only one time, that I know of, when someone else saw me. Oxford, Mississippi. My Mississippi Natural Gas line ran right by the airport. I watched for traffic as I approached the airport from the South. One airplane in the pattern. I continued on my pipeline until I was southwest of the airport and he had landed on runway 09. I then turned and landed 09 and turned off at the first taxiway. At that time I noticed he was just turning off at the last taxiway.
I was out of my 172 when he pulled in with his nice airplane, I forget what model but fast single I think. He asked if I had just landed to which I replied yes. He accosted me with great vigor for some time. At each pause to catch his breath, I answered, "You're probably right." After some time and several. "You're probably rights." he shook his head and left.
Of course he was right. But my radio call from southwest of the airport at 200' AGL on a pipeline would only have disrupted his approach and might have caused a dangerous go around. In the interest of safety, I did not make that radio call. In the interest of safety I also did not climb up to 1,000' only to return to 200' to land. DOT requires that every foot of the pipeline be observed by air or driven or walked by the pipeline folks. This scenario happens a lot and no, other pilots don't necessarily know about it. Nor would it improve safety to involve them. Nor does ATC, when a tower is available, take the pipeline pilot up through his traffic to 1,000' only to come back down through his traffic to land. It just doesn't make sense. Nor are any FARs violated by how it is being handled stealth at uncontrolled fields.
A very, very important consideration must be made for those in the normal pattern by crop dusters and pipeline pilots using stealth to avoid confusion at the uncontrolled airport. We must give way to all. We can see them easily above our horizon. They cannot see us easily below their horizon. It would be very stupid and unsafe to insist on spacing in normal traffic unless we climbed up there. It would also be unsafe, in my opinion, for us to climb up there.
On the other hand, there was only one time, that I know of, when someone else saw me. Oxford, Mississippi. My Mississippi Natural Gas line ran right by the airport. I watched for traffic as I approached the airport from the South. One airplane in the pattern. I continued on my pipeline until I was southwest of the airport and he had landed on runway 09. I then turned and landed 09 and turned off at the first taxiway. At that time I noticed he was just turning off at the last taxiway.
I was out of my 172 when he pulled in with his nice airplane, I forget what model but fast single I think. He asked if I had just landed to which I replied yes. He accosted me with great vigor for some time. At each pause to catch his breath, I answered, "You're probably right." After some time and several. "You're probably rights." he shook his head and left.
Of course he was right. But my radio call from southwest of the airport at 200' AGL on a pipeline would only have disrupted his approach and might have caused a dangerous go around. In the interest of safety, I did not make that radio call. In the interest of safety I also did not climb up to 1,000' only to return to 200' to land. DOT requires that every foot of the pipeline be observed by air or driven or walked by the pipeline folks. This scenario happens a lot and no, other pilots don't necessarily know about it. Nor would it improve safety to involve them. Nor does ATC, when a tower is available, take the pipeline pilot up through his traffic to 1,000' only to come back down through his traffic to land. It just doesn't make sense. Nor are any FARs violated by how it is being handled stealth at uncontrolled fields.
A very, very important consideration must be made for those in the normal pattern by crop dusters and pipeline pilots using stealth to avoid confusion at the uncontrolled airport. We must give way to all. We can see them easily above our horizon. They cannot see us easily below their horizon. It would be very stupid and unsafe to insist on spacing in normal traffic unless we climbed up there. It would also be unsafe, in my opinion, for us to climb up there.
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Fri May 07, 2021 6:54 am
Re: Too close, way too close
Aryana's video of the Citation pilot acting as tower using this new GPS identification of equipped airplanes was interesting to me as I had never seen it on a screen. I really don't expect ATC to want to take it over, remotely possibly. If money is available for a man to be there, why not tower? Letting the highest guy be Marshall would only make sense if he never came down. The fastest guy around directing the slowest guys around doesn't seem safe.
Does this level of traffic last very long at Bend? Local airport training toward eventual airline work has really picked up here. It is the most in my 60 years in aviation. Monet has Jack Henry Citations coming and going mostly early and late in the day. They call from way out and try to work around what is there without actually directing other airplanes. I just got my grandson a ten hour block with local instructors and was pretty nervous in back of the 172 at 1,000' among the little guys, but JH Citations were almost no factor. They are very professional pilots and put their lights on way out.
Does this level of traffic last very long at Bend? Local airport training toward eventual airline work has really picked up here. It is the most in my 60 years in aviation. Monet has Jack Henry Citations coming and going mostly early and late in the day. They call from way out and try to work around what is there without actually directing other airplanes. I just got my grandson a ten hour block with local instructors and was pretty nervous in back of the 172 at 1,000' among the little guys, but JH Citations were almost no factor. They are very professional pilots and put their lights on way out.
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