Zzz wrote:It's the Lord's work to return the PA-22 to a taildragger. Supposedly more converted PA-22s are flying than original PA-20s.

Tell that to the owners of my current project....

mtv wrote:If you want a good solid flying airplane, the Tri Pacer is hard to beat. That said, a quick glance at the list Brian posted would likely have the airplane “cost” up near the $80,000 mark. Brian was NOT suggesting you even consider all those mods, of course.

Probably closer to 6 digits... Would be one hell of a bird though... I'm just waiting for the guy with a bunch of $$ wanting me to build it....

Brian

Zzz wrote:

Hammer wrote:Do that for a couple years and then see how much you really want to spend on tweaking a perfectly flyable airplane into something other than what the aeronautical engineers designed it to be.

Oh Hammer...

It's the Lord's work to return the PA-22 to a taildragger. ...

...Despite what we want the question to be, in reading back over the OP, it appears he is asking specifically what are the best STC'd mods to a Pacer. Anyone know?

Well, at least I found a church worth joining, if only the tithing wasn't so high...

And shame on you for even suggesting that we should be telling the OP what he wants to know, not what we think he needs to know. Facts and expertise are no match for speculation and conjecture.

Just one follow up to the toe brake conversation. If you are indeed flying it in Tricycle, rather than taildragger, configuration, the toe brakes are not added value.

The direct pushrod steering means that it steers exactly where you tell it to already. If you push full left rudder it will make a full deflection and turn as sharp as it can. If you push full rudder, decide you want it to turn sharper, and horse it with application of directional brakes, you can bend, or break, things that you need to not be bent or broken.

Carry on.

Oh...and yes, I would love to have a PA-22/20, but it is crazy to convert one. Buy one somebody else converted if you want it in taildragger configuration. They fly fantastic in either configuration, why waste time and money when you could be flying?

This time I mean it...

...Carry on...

mtv wrote:

Zzz wrote:

Hammer wrote:Do that for a couple years and then see how much you really want to spend on tweaking a perfectly flyable airplane into something other than what the aeronautical engineers designed it to be.

Oh Hammer...

The only people disappointed when a PA-22 gets converted to a tailwheel config are the ones who can't (or won't) fly tailwheel. Even the engineers who designed the milk stool (probably only a memory to their grandchildren now) were embarrassed they had to cater to the market that wanted a nosewheel, and thusly molested their original design.

It's the Lord's work to return the PA-22 to a taildragger. Supposedly more converted PA-22s are flying than original PA-20s.

Despite what we want the question to be, in reading back over the OP, it appears he is asking specifically what are the best STC'd mods to a Pacer. Anyone know?

Zane, Zane, Zane........

I’m betting that Piper sold a shitload more Tri Pacers than they ever did Pacers. For that reason alone, I’m guessing those guys who designed that conversion were happy as pigs in you know what with that transition.

Nothing in the world wrong with a Tri Pacer.

MTV

I like the going for the for the gold in swearing with "shitload" but "happier than pigs in shit" is taking a it a little too far PETA would be very upset at making fun of the conditions those pigs have to live in and the assumption that they're happy...

I must say out the gate how much I love this freaking website and how Zane and others have brought like minded airplane nerds together that is truly "the Lords work"!

The aircraft in question is indeed a TriPacer not converted to conventional... my bad for the mistake in nomenclature.

I'm currently working on my tailwheel endorsement mainly because.... well you just freaking have to even if you don't fly a taildragger (imo) but I must say in my "line of work" I have seen many a/c accidents and every single one has either been a taildragger or a light twin engine so I'm a bit on the fence on whether to own a taildragger, espicially if I'm logging a whopping 4 hours a month tops.
That said, A "stock" TriPacer (or Pacer) is the ultimate blank canvas. A stock Tripe seems to be a solid 2 seater that can carry a lot and get in/out of some fun places or a 4 seater with half tanks to go sight seeing with the in-laws, modify from there.

It also seems to be doing this for less in up front and/or operating costs than a 172? I'm not sure on that but seems to be... I'm prepared to be corrected.

I totally dig the idea of no matter what I end up snagging (if not this bird which unfortunately seems to be more likely the case now) to fly the hell out of it and modify after getting the warm and fuzzies from an AI.

For S&Gs I'm wondering what the very general cost(s) would be for some of the aforementioned STCs would be? sounds like the left side and seaplane door setup would be a pretty penny but VGs would be a bit more "reasonable".

Once again I'm showing my blissful ignorance but the damn if I don't love the deluge of valuable info from fellow nerds that have done this kind of thing before. Keep it coming!

Who you calling nerds? I was in the audio-visual club, and I have mad skills.

Agree that toe brakes are not necessary. A properly maintained pa22 will stop and turn just fine with the stock system IMO. With the short-coupled gear I never had a problem turning around with a reasonable distance.

I wouldn’t consider the body/chassis mods unless you were going to recover the fabric unless I had money to burn and wanted the plane down for a while. If you recover it would be on my list (but again a recover job could exceed the value of the a/c).

A few ones i will add are the niagara oil cooler (cools way better than an old stock one, and shaves a few pounds off the nose) and the lightweight Odyssey AGM battery STC. The first thing I did to mine was add a Casper Labs oil filter adapter to lose the old screen.


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Hammer wrote:Who you calling nerds? I was in the audio-visual club, and I have mad skills.

Here’s what I saw. I don’t know if it was intentional but it really went well with your joke, Hammer!

crap...let me try again.

Who you calling nerds? I was in the audio-visual club, and I have mad skills.

Zzz wrote:It's the Lord's work to return the PA-22 to a taildragger. Supposedly more converted PA-22s are flying than original PA-20s.

Amen! Preach brother!

I was very close to going down the road to buy one, ended up with a c-140, but in my research on the tripe and chatting with guys from short winged piper group, just be vigilant before the buy on corrosion of that steel tube. Several suggested that even if fabric was hangered ceconite that a full recovering of them was not unwise every 25 years just to make sure all tube is good. Take that for what its worth, and look into it for your own confort level and forming your own opinion. By no means do I mean this as a "ney say" i think the milkstool is an awesome looking plane, i love the rugged look.

Rickshaw84 wrote:…..For S&Gs I'm wondering what the very general cost(s) would be for some of the aforementioned STCs would be? sounds like the left side and seaplane door setup would be a pretty penny but VGs would be a bit more "reasonable". ....

Pretty easy to find some of this stuff out for yourself--
for example, ask Mr Google about VGs and he will likely refer you here:
https://microaero.com/vgkit/pa-22-tri-pacer/
A VG kit for a PA22 from Micro Aero in Anacortes WA only costs $695.
Installation is pretty easy, you can maybe do it yourself under an IA's supervision,
or at least provide "owner-assistance".
I was underwhelmed with the effect of the Micro VG's I put on my C150TD,
but I've heard that the Pacer wing (USA-35B airfoil, same as a Supercub) responds well to them.
I would second others' suggestions that you save your money for now--
wait until you have enough time in the airplane (and the first annual under your belt) to know what it needs.
It might be that it is just fine as is.

I'll put up the short list...

SA Gascolator - $255.00 until next year
SA brake booster - $400.00 tri gear only
SA Single puck Brakes - $250.00 paperwork only
SA Skylight, paperwork only - $95.00

0-360A1P with constant speed prop (must be converted to tail wheel)... Undetermined... I ran out of exhaust systems... could be up to 6K as it has to have my exhaust, airbox and rudder trim system.

Speaking of SA Rudder trim system - $525.00

Svenns stuff, all paperwork only...
battery - $155
PA-18 tail - $365
8:50 or 26 inch tires - $260
Borrer Prop 0-320 - $365
Wing Tip - $260
There are others but I am limiting it to the 0-320 stuff...

Trimmer, also all paperwork only...
Left and right seaplane door - $250 each
Fuel system upgrade - $350, just the Maule valve $75.00
Tail wheel conversion using PA-18 gear - $750.00
Single side control stick - $250 for both or $150 for one
0-360 conversion with fixed prop - $2100.00

VG's already posted at $695.00

I believe the Bushmaster STC is around $1000.00

And there is the Univair stuff also... would have to look that up
Do not know what the Raven gear conversion is costing either now days..

Brian.

Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:I'll put up the short list...

SA Gascolator - $255.00 until next year
SA brake booster - $400.00 tri gear only
SA Single puck Brakes - $250.00 paperwork only
SA Skylight, paperwork only - $95.00

0-360A1P with constant speed prop (must be converted to tail wheel)... Undetermined... I ran out of exhaust systems... could be up to 6K as it has to have my exhaust, airbox and rudder trim system.

Speaking of SA Rudder trim system - $525.00

Svenns stuff, all paperwork only...
battery - $155
PA-18 tail - $365
8:50 or 26 inch tires - $260
Borrer Prop 0-320 - $365
Wing Tip - $260
There are others but I am limiting it to the 0-320 stuff...

Trimmer, also all paperwork only...
Left and right seaplane door - $250 each
Fuel system upgrade - $350, just the Maule valve $75.00
Tail wheel conversion using PA-18 gear - $750.00
Single side control stick - $250 for both or $150 for one
0-360 conversion with fixed prop - $2100.00

VG's already posted at $695.00

I believe the Bushmaster STC is around $1000.00

And there is the Univair stuff also... would have to look that up
Do not know what the Raven gear conversion is costing either now days..

Brian.

And all of that is BEFORE you add labor, which can double or triple the cost of any of those mods.....seriously.

Due diligence BEFORE you pull the trigger on assuming you’ll do a bunch of mods is essential.

MTV

I have some of the mods in posts above but not many. I'd immediately add shoulder harnesses if not already equipped, then fly the crap out of it and upgrade along the way.

Some of the mods I have and my thoughts:

Hooker harnesses because I don't want to smash my face in the panel in an already bad situation.

Mogas STC because my 150hp 320 much prefers it. Unfortunately now in CA I have only been using 100LL and lean like crazy on the ground so that I don't foul my plugs by the time to run up.

Univair TD conversion with dual toe brakes. My dad did this conversion ~22 years ago, so the 22/20 is what I grew up and learned to fly in. He made sure to do dual brakes because he knew me and my brother would likely learn to fly in it. I wouldn't rule out a nice 22 but I'd immediately convert it to the way it was supposed to be!

8.50x6 tires because these are sufficient for most places I go, aren't absurdly expensive or heavy, and keep my speed up pretty well.

Steve's gascolator because the old one kept leaking.

Niagra oil cooler a few years back after the stock one developed a leak. This was a fairly significant weight reduction.

Plane Power alternator to replace the old generator. This was a slight weight saving as well.

In the future I have lots of mods planned during rebuild but for now I'd prefer to just go fly! It's a damn good plane with minimal modifications. I try to operate as light as possible. I may do VGs and lightweight battery before then but I tend to not change something unless work is necessary for that system due to wear/damage.

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kevbot wrote:... and lean like crazy on the ground so that I don't foul my plugs by the time to run up...

That's good operating procedure in any piston airplane running 100ll. From the moment of start-up I lean until I can just barely taxi under power. In all aspects of flight other than short final I manipulate the red knob more than any other control. An engine monitor is somewhat necessary, however.

The only times I've ever fowled a plug was on the ground during duel instruction when I wasn't controlling the engine because it wasn't my airplane.

Low lead was a pinko commie plot. Enough lead for big engine and way too much for small. Lean on the ground regardless of DA or you will have to clean plugs before 100 hour.

I bought three Tri-Pacers because they were cheap mountain airplanes and Pacers had 0-290s. They were the poor mans 182.

kevbot wrote:…..
8.50x6 tires because these are sufficient for most places I go, aren't absurdly expensive or heavy, and keep my speed up pretty well.
Steve's gascolator because the old one kept leaking.
Niagra oil cooler a few years back after the stock one developed a leak. This was a fairly significant weight reduction.
Plane Power alternator to replace the old generator. This was a slight weight saving as well.....
I may do VGs and lightweight battery before then but I tend to not change something unless work is necessary for that system due to wear/damage.

Good idea-- put off the "nice to have" mods (which most of them are, vs "must haves, like good brakes & shoulder harnesses)
until you have to address something due to wear & tear or age.
Examples: battery getting tired? Install a lightweight Odyssey.
Starer getting tired? Install a lightweight Skytec.
Charging system getting tired? Install a Plane Power lightweight alternator.
Etc etc

If you are only going to fly 4 hours a month then I would just rent... But, if you insist on owning at four hours of flying a month I would invest heavily in oil and cam guard, you will need to keep the cam from rusting due to lack of use.

G44 wrote:If you are only going to fly 4 hours a month then I would just rent... But, if you insist on owning at four hours of flying a month I would invest heavily in oil and cam guard, you will need to keep the cam from rusting due to lack of use.

I totally agree with G44 and its hard to argue with the logic. That said, I posted on a separate "purchasing tips (and tricks?)" feed the following post...

"Honestly I agree, the main issue is most rental options available in the area are very limited and very very restrictive on where you can go, what minimum length the runway has to be, minimum hours per day for over nighters, getting "bumped" to a totally different airframe if a student schedules the original aircraft requested, finally they are abused training aircraft that, well... I'd be surprised if the O-320s most of them have are actually performing at 150hp.

Out of curiosity...(maybe this is a totally different feed).

How many hours would be a "minimum amount of hours" to be flown monthly/annually be required to...

A. Avoid aircraft/engine damage
and/or
B. Make aircraft ownership "justified"


As a side-note... I did join a flying club about 2 years ago that has been a HUGE improvement for accessibility and affordability... that said I mentioned (albeit, tongue and cheek) we should look into a Sprotsman STOL leading edge or at least VGs for obviously amazing reasons. Unfortunately it was met with "nah, we'll probably sell this C172k and start looking for something with retractable gear soon." Much to my chagrin, I may be leaving this flying club sooner than later if that its future."


sorry to double post on different threads but was trying to keep it a bit more organized I guess... I don't know what the hell I'm doing
But I really do appreciate the input and opinions! such a great community to be apart of!