Run the same numbers on your truck, and they'll make ya cry too.

I NEVER figure my operating costs, other than how much it takes to fill the tanks when I swipe the credit card. I get a check for working, I write a check for airplane shit, and somehow it all works out.

Gump

You calling me an average guy G?.....Holy break down the numbers batman!You just scared me into selling the 180,.... Damm ,,dont do that! stop with the facts....

GumpAir wrote:Run the same numbers on your truck, and they'll make ya cry too.

I NEVER figure my operating costs, other than how much it takes to fill the tanks when I swipe the credit card. I get a check for working, I write a check for airplane shit, and somehow it all works out.

Gump

Pure gold right there Mr. Gump.

....G.......Oh yea ...headed ur way mid May..give or take 50 miles....Vail

low rider wrote:I' ve been lucky with my 180(I think)nothing major has gone wrong in 5 years of ownership.about 1000hrs since major o-470-k...between 1000 and 2500.00$ annuals...change the oil put gas in it and try to not break it.....the 180 kicks ass as an overall airplane...

that sounds awesome. I AM scared now after seeing that $300-$400 /hour operating costs but I understand he's saving for the overhaul.. I was thinking for a $70-$80k 180 maybe $1500/month in an account would cover me flying about 5-10 hours per month. The biggest mystery to me is how to pay for the overhaul. Maybe I better look into a partnership with a trusted buddy or two.

Preddriver wrote:The biggest mystery to me is how to pay for the overhaul. Maybe I better look into a partnership with a trusted buddy or two.

Screw that...

Fly the heck out of it. The more you fly and the harder you fly it, the longer that engine will last. Then, make friends with a good engine guy, and rebuild that engine yourself. It ain't rocket science.

Gump

lowflyin'G3 wrote:
Variable expenses (per hour)
Fuel (now)- $70.00 (14 gal x $5.00)
Airframe-$12.00 ($1,500 / 125 hours)
Engine- $12.00 ($1,500 / 125 hours) hourly for yearly maintenance
Engine - $58.33 ($35,000 / 600 hours) hourly for overhaul cost, I bought mine with 800 hours on it, 1400 TBO, 600 hours to save $35k
General upgrade slush fund - $20.00 ($2,500 per year. This is to pay for future GPS upgrades, skis, float maintenace, radio upgrade, etc.) I also use this for the unexpected AD, etc. A friggin' handheld GPS costs $1,500 and the XM subscription is like $350 per year!!!
Your $92 from above fixed expenses!!

TOTAL PER HOUR FOR 125 HOURS PER YEAR FOR ME!!!! = $264.33 per hour for everything!
That's a grand total of $33,041.25 per year for 125 hours. Of course if I fly a little less my hourly is more but gross is less and if I fly a little more then my hourly is less but my gross is more.

Thank you for taking the time to explain, this helps me alot! Sounds like $1500-$2000/month will get me 5 hrs of time more or less. Maybe I need a cheaper plane, make more money, make more friends with money, or all of the above. Thanks again!

GumpAir wrote:

Preddriver wrote:The biggest mystery to me is how to pay for the overhaul. Maybe I better look into a partnership with a trusted buddy or two.

Screw that...

Fly the heck out of it. The more you fly and the harder you fly it, the longer that engine will last. Then, make friends with a good engine guy, and rebuild that engine yourself. It ain't rocket science.

Gump

that's a damn good idea as well. I was an aircraft mechanic on KC-135's before I ended up flying them... I should get that A&P!!

The buy it with a friend sounds good until they ground loop it 9 days after you buy it.I had a pretty sweet deal going with a 185 awhile back .Bought it with a friend then 9 days later he wrecked it.....all of a sudden it was not such a sweet deal............

low rider wrote:The buy it with a friend sounds good until they ground loop it 9 days after you buy it.I had a pretty sweet deal going with a 185 awhile back .Bought it with a friend then 9 days later he wrecked it.....all of a sudden it was not such a sweet deal............

Great point, lowrider ... it's way way better to buy a lesser plane for which you can pay full freight by yourself, than to enter into a "marriage" contract with some other dude just to save a few bucks or buy a bigger/faster/prettier plane ... and then have it turn ugly sooner or later.

A friend of mine used to own a Cherokee 180 that he loaned to others to fly, until one of those dudes wrecked it. After insurance payoff, my friend still lost about $10K on that deal, and the guy who wrecked his plane wouldn't cover it. That was not a co-ownership situation, true, but the principle still applies - who else in this world do you trust as much as you trust yourself? To whom else in this world are you willing to lose a bunch of your hard-earned money, and whom else do you trust to fly and take care of your plane as responsibly as you do?

Also another great point by Gump ... the more hours you fly your plane, the longer your plane will last and the more value you'll get out of it. Just figure on the price of a new car every 10-15 years or so to cover the engine rebuild. How many people waste more money than that trading in cars or trucks every couple of years?

You can also save a lot of cost on the rebuild by finding a local trustworthy A/P and help him overhaul it in your hangar - for a lot cheaper than the published overhaul/exchange prices at the big engine shops. They've got their big facilities and management overhead to pay for, insurance and such, plus sales & marketing overhead, etc. All those ads you see in the magazines by Continental or Lycoming or the big engine shops - who pays for that? The customer, of course.

Is your plane worth more in the marketplace with an engine from one of the big shops or from the manuracturer, as compared to what it's worth with a local no-name log entry for the rebuild? Yeah ... but probably not nearly as much as the added premium you'd have to pay to those guys for an engine.

Sorry to be the "Debbie Downer" but that's the reality of aircraft ownership for a mid-size, certified, single running avgas with an average mechanically inclined owner.
Gump is right on the avoiding full picture spreadsheets when it comes to expenses, that is what most do. Even me for certain things, but not my airplanes. He is also right about the fact that being networked and having the expertise to do your own maintenance will make things more affordable. The parts though, will always be what they are. I am finding more often than not that everything for an airplane is getting to be $1,000, period. Even small things are going up. Example, my yoke needs the little plastic bushing that goes around it where it goes into the panel tube, $300.00!!!! No kidding, for a little circle of plastic!
The high costs are making it so guys can fly less so that's bringing in a currency issue where safety is concerned. If you have a tailwheel airplane like a 180 and want to bring it into the woods occasionally with your family in the back, safely, you'd better be flying it at least 75 hours a year and doing a minimum of around 100 landings in that time to be at all proficient. Now if you work doing this crap probably not as much is required, but still recommended.
It's hard to justify blowing $25,000 per year on "fun" when you have kids to put through college in a few years and you turn around and realize that the next generation may not have social security and your retirement account only has $100k in it. That same $25k per year for fifteen years with compound interest on it would make a real difference in the end at 65 years old. And no matter how much of an "investment" we like to think airplanes are, they ain't that much of one unless they are one you don't take out to use! I believe that's what many come to think and why we see less activity. Minus the working planes at my airport we have about 45 based airplanes, out of those I can only think of about 5 that fly more than 50 hours per year and probably 30 of the remaining fly less than 15 hours per year. If they have them paid off and own the hangar they just have insurance no matter the amount they fly so flying less definitely makes their overall costs less but it also makes them less proficient and at the end what's the sense in owning something that you don't use. So you can say you have one at parties while it rots into the ground?
The only way I make it work is because it is my work and 90% of it is all written off. For a guy who's hobby it is has the double edged sword. You first have to make that $25k that takes around $32.5k pre-tax to have, then it all gets spent with no tax benefit on the other end. $25k per year of TRULY disposable income is something that few of us working guys have consistently for fifteen to thirty years in a row above and beyond the other life expenses that families provide.
Low rider's partnership comment is very true, especially for something that requires some currency and skill to fly. Still that may be the only way to go for most in today's world of real costs. Take 58skylane's situation for example. They got into his engine and now his 182 has sat for around one year while he makes money to buy a new one. And he has no kids to feed on the side. It would be easier to face that cost with one or two others than alone.
Or as you said something smaller and cheaper. That's what the experimental world has done for years. It has taken the average Joe that makes $35 to $50k per year and made it so he could enjoy flight with the rest of us on an inexpensive (thus not necessarily hull insured) volkswagon engined aircraft that could be trailered home to be put in the garage he already owned. Now of course that has evolved too and we have experimental aircraft that can have three to four times as much wrapped up in them as my 180 but I don't believe that was the original spirit of the EAA in the 60's.
Trying to find a reason to have it owned by a corporation might help you defer some costs but you'd better have it wrapped up well because the various taxing entities really want their money right now. That includes state sales tax. Six or so percent is a bit to cough up up front when you start talking about $100k value. It is for me anyway. And that "I'm a dealer" thing is growing thin with many of them, it is in Idaho anyhow.
The main reason I point all of this out is that I hate to see an airplane fly 10 hours a year because the true costs weren't realized until someone got into it and are now trying to keep it by not flying it. Not only unsafe but defeats the purpose if you ask me.
It's not good for the plane, the engine, the pilot, or the family getting in the plane with the pilot behind the engine.
Just my opinion after many years of aviation observation.

I have a neighbor whose farm operation/income is similar to mine. He drives new vehicles every three to four years, cars and pickups both. He asked me how I can afford a plane while he smoked away on his four pack a day habit with his wife close behind. Simple math tells me they have more in cigarettes and the daily lottery ticket during their working careers than I have in my plane and hangar. For a cushion, I buy the dumbed down car for my wife to drive to her job and I drive used rancher pickups to the field. We each find a way to support and justify our respective habits.

My first airplane, a 1979 C 182 Q, was purchased in 50/50 partnership. We documented the partnership agreement, were of similar experience level, both flew our families often and it worked out very well. I would not hesitate to have 1-2 partners in a plane partnership, as long as I know them . Most pilots fly 60 to 125 hrs/yr and that makes it hard to justify sole ownership---BUT, you must know your partner (s).
Oh, what happened to my first partnership---after 5 years, my partner and his wife had a third child. His boss and good friend had a big C 210--so we sold our plane, he joined in with his boss ( another 50/50 partnership) and I bought a C 182 turbo RG--that cost a fortune to maintain--but kept if 6 years before my flying hours declined from 125/yr to 60/yr, as my biz career ended.

Capt. Kirk wrote:I noticed you forgot to mention a Stinson 108-3 in your list of planes. I've never flown one but I hear they're a nice plane when you've got the right engine up front. I'd think with the back seat out you could haul whatever gear you want.

Meh, seem like people always think you need to through some huge engine and monster truck worthy tires on to do anything, same thing with VGs, like the number of horse power times the number of VGs = your back country cred lol


I remember learning how to fly on a little stone stock 7AC Champ, I could land it on the number (i.e. the left number or the right number, top or bottom) and take off in a distance that made our 2k ft grass strip feel like LAX, landed on beaches, etc, and if I needed to get somewhere really quick I jumped on Alaska Airlines. Didnt need a turbine conversion or a 180hp engine, or half a million VGs to do it ether.

Take a good look at what type of flying you are going to be doing, take a good look at your skill level and find a plane that will fit. Once you buy the plane save your "mods" money and put it in the tank to log hours at new places or fly with people who have a great amount of skill, OR get your A&P. This will yield better results that any engine on silly mod. my .02

lowflyin'G3, you make some valid points, but much of your argument is dubious. Have you ever heard of the principles of accounting?

You are not paying $33K per year for 125 hours of flying. First, it didn't cost you that much, because you can't count savings for future purchases as an expense. Second, you're receiving much more than flying for your money, including eventual ownership of the plane. Third, many of your stated expenses are discretionary, and are not required to own and fly a plane.

I could own a 180 for less than half of what you claim it costs you.

Only the principles my accountant uses.

Yes I do.

I count whatever I have to put money out for as an expense. No smoke and mirrors accountant bullshit. I fly the airplane until December 15, look at the tach, then cut a check for the amount of hours flown in the previous 12 months for the amounts I quoted per hour. Period. That to me is an expense. Next time it will be less on engine cost because I'll have the full TBO to build it, yes.

You are right, eventually I will own it but right now it costs me $7,200 per year to own it for the payment. Again, no fancy sreadsheets or accountant terminology. I have to make that money and cut a check for it by December 31 or the plane goes away. I can't spend it on food or vacations or retirement funds. When I'm done paying for it in 15 more years then we'll start to talk about it being cheaper.

If you say so, I guess you don't need to hangar it, or have a slush fund to upgrade to a selkirk interior, or Garmin GPS, or PPonk engine, or $3,000 bushwheels, or replace those worn 37 year old flap tracks.

You might be able to do it for $16,000 per year if;
You didn't fly it much.
You burnt auto fuel.
You didn't hangar it.
You were an A&P or IA.
You didn't save for future major maintenance expenses and rode the equity out of it and sold it for less than you bought it for.
You didn't save to upgrade avionics, accessories (tires, skis, floats), interior, or paint.

What I know is this Kev. I've been around airplanes for 37 of my 37 years in a commercial, "need to make it work" setting. I own and pay for four of them right now. I fly them, I maintain them, and I depend on them to be around and functional to continue to provide for my family. Dude posed a question and I gave my perspective on how I see it as the one who makes the money go in and sees it go out. I am not saying that we can't go diving three levels deep into accounting hocus pocus and gouge the crap out of it to make it all work for a given individual.
I am saying that at my house (literally), in my life, with my airplanes, treated the way I think they should be treated, THAT is the true cost of ownership on a year to year basis with my current costs as stated.

Your very bare minimum as I see it would be;
Insurance- $2kish
Hangar- $0
Payment- $0 (you bought an old one outright)

Fuel $70.00 x 125 = $8,750
Maintenance $2,500

Total - $13,250

So if you own it, keep it outside, save no money for future major upgrades or unanticipated AD's or failures you most certainly can do that for way less than half of of what I can.
We all believe whatever reality we want to Kev. Buy one and get after it, I'll go with you.
I hope you can do it for that, I can't and won't because I wanna be flying mine in another 10 years.

I was looking at a 180 before I even finished getting my ticket but thanks to this place I realized a few important things.Sure I could swing it with a loan,but when it came to expenses,insurance,operating costs etc etc.I quickly realized that the 5% more a 180 would perform for me was far from being worth going back into debt for.Even more so since I just got out of debt in order to pursue flying again.

I made a 3 year plan,
I started with paying down useless debt like credit cards,payed off my car and sold my truck for what i owed on it.Just the savings in dropping full coverage insurance on 2 vehicles in lovely NJ has allowed me to finish my ticket and SAVE some money,not to mention the car payments The savings there is going towards a future plane and some of the extra cash keeps me from using credit cards amongst other things.

So far even in this economy I'm on track to have about 30k CA$H give or take to spend,so when the time comes it'll be either a sweet 2 place,aeronca,t-craft etc or a decent stinson 108,c-170 and or maybe even a maule etc.

kevbert wrote:lowflyin'G3, you make some valid points, but much of your argument is dubious. Have you ever heard of the principles of accounting?

You are not paying $33K per year for 125 hours of flying. First, it didn't cost you that much, because you can't count savings for future purchases as an expense. Second, you're receiving much more than flying for your money, including eventual ownership of the plane. Third, many of your stated expenses are discretionary, and are not required to own and fly a plane.

I could own a 180 for less than half of what you claim it costs you.

If you're gonna dream you may as well dream big...

lowflyin'G3 wrote:Your very bare minimum as I see it would be;
Insurance- $2kish
Hangar- $0
Payment- $0 (you bought an old one outright)

Fuel $70.00 x 125 = $8,750
Maintenance $2,500

Total - $13,250

So if you own it, keep it outside, save no money for future major upgrades or unanticipated AD's or failures you most certainly can do that for way less than half of of what I can.

That's almost exactly how I was envisioning it. Buy an old one for cash and tie it down outside, selectively choosing one that should go another several hundred hours rather than one with all the bells and whistles. Then, to complete my tightwad dream, I would fly it for a few years (using up some equity, as you noted), and then sell it and buy another old one with several hundred hours left on it. I can budget a few grand each year towards the cost difference of the eventual trade-in, and still remain under the half-way point. However, I'll admit the numbers don't leave a lot of wiggle room for unanticipated repairs.

And, for the record, I do burn auto-fuel, I did tie my plane down for many years, and I've got an A&P/IA friend that saves me a fortune on labor. I even go beyond that and only have liability insurance plus ground-not-in-motion hull coverage, which is about $500/yr. My 172 is old and high-time and at best only worth $20K, and I'm getting pretty close to having saved the worth of the airplane in reduced premiums. I'll probably go for full (ground loop) coverage when I take up the cheap 180 challenge though!

Anyway, my approach isn't for everyone, but I know several owners who do it that way. It definitely has the potential to save some really big bucks. $16K x 15 years is a maximum of $240K that I could potentially save in the same timeframe of you paying off your airplane.

This thread is a DOWNER!!! Please stop making me look at the reality of owning an airplane,,,