low rider wrote:This thread is a DOWNER!!! Please stop making me look at the reality of owning an airplane,,,

I know what you mean

In case anyone forgot, I'm the "dude" who posted the question in the first place. All of your responses have been VERY helpful and eye-opening. I really do have a love affair with the 180 but maybe it's not the FIRST airplane for me. I've been flying since I was 12 (only about an hour a month with a paper route) and the 180 has always been my favorite. I have been eyeing the Stinson 108-2/3 as a cheaper alternative as well. I would love to be able to fly into some backcountry airstrips, I have a family owned residence on Vancouver Island that i've always dreamed of landing in the waterway for a backyard, or some grass/gravel/dirt airstrips and streambeds for fishing and camping with the family. I just need to make sure I have an aircraft that can carry at least 2 adults 2 kids and some camping gear safely. All of these things are dreams of mine, but i've never done it and need to learn from those who have.

Most of my aviation experience is flying heavy and light jets for the military, and only 300 of my 1100 TT is in single piston aircraft. I like to think that I am well trained and safe due to my military experience, but i am humbled by all of your words and long to learn the tricks of the trade.

Thanks again for all your words of advice and for sharing your experiences.

Kelly

Back to Hammer's original post on page one of this thread...

I still don't think there's a better "all around" airplane out there for family flying and camping. It's fairly fast, it's fairly slow. It hauls a moderate load anywhere most sane people would want to go. It's a nice IFR platform when you need it.

Buy as much airplane as your budget will allow. Fly the damn thing and learn from it. There's not a more honest airplane out there. A C180 will growl at you long before she'll bite, and you have to work hard to make yourself look dumb in one. Conversely, the airplane is a great teacher, and time spent learning the wing will pay off big time when you start working the airplane towards it's edges.

Am I biased. Damned right I am.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Back to Hammer's original post on page one of this thread...

I still don't think there's a better "all around" airplane out there for family flying and camping. It's fairly fast, it's fairly slow. It hauls a moderate load anywhere most sane people would want to go. It's a nice IFR platform when you need it.

Buy as much airplane as your budget will allow. Fly the damn thing and learn from it. There's not a more honest airplane out there. A C180 will growl at you long before she'll bite, and you have to work hard to make yourself look dumb in one. Conversely, the airplane is a great teacher, and time spent learning the wing will pay off big time when you start working the airplane towards it's edges.

Am I biased. Damned right I am.

Gump

Could not have said it better. I've owned my '56 180 for twenty years, and there isn't a machine out there that better suits my needs.

Mike

Maybe I can look at teaching out of it (close friends) or using it in some capacity to help pay the bills.

Any info on how much insurance goes up once you start using it for hire?

low rider wrote:This thread is a DOWNER!!! Please stop making me look at the reality of owning an airplane,,,

The reality is that planes are expensive and you have to keep yourself in the dark a little bit about the summary of those expenses, but what is the alternative? Quit? Bwahahaha... We are addicts and we piss away all our money and destroy our lives in pursuit of stick time. I'm ok with that. This IS what life is about.

Some days I come really close to wanting a 180, usually while watching Flying Wild Alaska, or watching Oregon180 load his whole family up, but then I remind myself that I vowed never to own a certified aircraft again.

Preddriver wrote:Maybe I can look at teaching out of it (close friends) or using it in some capacity to help pay the bills.

Any info on how much insurance goes up once you start using it for hire?

Call an insurance broker. Many underwriters won't cover flight instruction.

How much tailwheel time do you have? How much tailwheel DUAL GIVEN time do you have? How much Cessna 180 time, how much Cessna 180 dual instruction given? Etc.

In other words, bring LOTS of cash. My guess is insurance for instruction will break the bank unless all you get is liability coverage.

I would also point out that you cannot ignore the potential costs of a major "discovery" in buying a used airplane, and many of those "discoveries" will cost you THOUSANDS to fix. This is one of the reasons many people own a particular airplane for many years: They know what they have. Sell it and buy something else, and you'll almost assuredly find some very expensive glitch in that one.

Go into this eyes wide open and with an EXTREMELY thorough pre-buy inspection, done by someone who REALLY knows Cessna 180's.

MTV

This airplane looks like a steal. However, I wonder what the Airworthiness Certification issues are.
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1973/Cessna/185F/1283099.html

Yep I hear ya. I don't have a lot of tailwheel time, no instructing time (for civilian aircraft anyway) and no 180 time. I'm just going to be realistic and stick with what i can afford by myself or perhaps with my very good friend who started flying with me at age 12. I've been looking at 170's as well, not as much load ability and power, but it could still take a couple folks fishing or camping at low dens. altitudes, or the Stinson 108-2/3, lot's of options i suppose.
Thanks again for everyone's inputs.

K

Zane wrote:

low rider wrote:This thread is a DOWNER!!! Please stop making me look at the reality of owning an airplane,,,

The reality is that planes are expensive and you have to keep yourself in the dark a little bit about the summary of those expenses, but what is the alternative? Quit? Bwahahaha... We are addicts and we piss away all our money and destroy our lives in pursuit of stick time. I'm ok with that. This IS what life is about.

Some days I come really close to wanting a 180, usually while watching Flying Wild Alaska, or watching Oregon180 load his whole family up, but then I remind myself that I vowed never to own a certified aircraft again.

Dang, Zane, your reply is even more of a downer.

Sure, airplane ownership is expensive, but for someone with some disposable cash available, there's lots of other ways people spend their money that's no more "responsible" than airplane ownership. Whether its boats ("a hole in the ocean into which you dump all of your money"); cars (try trading in for a new vehicle, or two or three or four like you see in lots of driveways, every 2-3 years and then count up all the depreciation that went down the memory hole); RVs (easily more expensive than airplanes to buy, and they depreciate a helluva lot faster); and (gulp) home ownership (I own a home in southwest Florida that makes me cry every time I read my annual property tax bill, and am reminded how far in the dumper I am compared to what I paid for it in '05); big motorcycles; ATVs and snow machines; custom cars and trucks; etc. etc. etc.

And that's not including actual vices, like smoking, gambling, women (depends on how lucky you are), etc.

If ya got any money to feed your passion, and flying is your passion, then what else are you supposed to do with your money? Save it all for retirement, so that when you're too old to do anything, you spend what little time you have left sitting in a rocker at the nursing home wishing you'd pissed it away instead on aeroplanes?

Not us!!!

nmflyguy wrote:If ya got any money to feed your passion, and flying is your passion, then what else are you supposed to do with your money? Save it all for retirement, so that when you're too old to do anything, you spend what little time you have left sitting in a rocker at the nursing home wishing you'd pissed it away instead on aeroplanes?

Not us!!!

Fuckin' A !!!!!!!

All a matter of priorities.

Broke and fly? Money to count but sitting on the ground? Or boat, or new truck, or better butterfly collection. Gotta have something to keep your brain happy.

I may live poor and die poor, but I got better memories than most people I know thanks to these wonderful flying machines and the places they've taken me.

Gump

nmflyguy wrote:[q
Dang, Zane, your reply is even more of a downer.

Why is that? You said basically the same thing I did.

I gladly piss my money away on airplanes and flying. Even in my poorer days I "irrationally" spent money on flying when I could have been saving for a house.

Perhaps you have a negative connotation with the term "pissing" away money, but to me it means spending it "unwisely" by the definition of a responsible, rational person. There's nothing rational or responsible about pleasure flying, but I am passionate about it and will continue this destructive, irresponsible behavior until they close the casket.

Zane wrote:

nmflyguy wrote:[q
Dang, Zane, your reply is even more of a downer.

Why is that? You said basically the same thing I did.

I gladly piss my money away on airplanes and flying. Even in my poorer days I "irrationally" spent money on flying when I could have been saving for a house.

Perhaps you have a negative connotation with the term "pissing" away money, but to me it means spending it "unwisely" by the definition of a responsible, rational person. There's nothing rational or responsible about pleasure flying, but I am passionate about it and will continue this destructive, irresponsible behavior until they close the casket.

Most of what's been said here about the 180 is true. It is very important to know what you are getting into when you buy one. There are also a bunch of little differences in the early model airplanes that make it important to do your homework before writing the check. Between '53 and '56, tailwheel steering, gear geometry, exhaust system, engine mount, and cowling were improved. The O470K that came out in the '56 model was a fairly large improvement over the -A and -J that preceded it. If you buy an early model with a -A engine, and an exhaust system that's rotted away, a prop that needs replaced, and maybe a gear box with a bunch of smoking rivets, you will have the opportunity to "piss away" a bunch of money. If you find one that's been loved, you should have several years of carefree flying. The trouble comes when it's time to sell. Selling mine would be like giving away my Golden Retriever...Just isn't goin' to happen on my watch.

The old 182's will do about the same job, but the 180 is an airplane I always turn to look back at as I walk away...The 182?...not so much. Here's a shot of my neighbor's '58 out in front of our place earlier in the year...I think you will see what I mean:

http://www.wingsanddreams.com/Michael/Photos.html#47

Oh my god you live there? Dude you live in heaven as far as im concerned wow.

Zane wrote:

low rider wrote:This thread is a DOWNER!!! Please stop making me look at the reality of owning an airplane,,,

The reality is that planes are expensive and you have to keep yourself in the dark a little bit about the summary of those expenses, but what is the alternative? Quit? Bwahahaha... We are addicts and we piss away all our money and destroy our lives in pursuit of stick time. I'm ok with that. This IS what life is about.

Some days I come really close to wanting a 180, usually while watching Flying Wild Alaska, or watching Oregon180 load his whole family up, but then I remind myself that I vowed never to own a certified aircraft again.

Hi, my name is John . . . and I have an airplane problem . . .

Preddriver wrote:Oh my god you live there? Dude you live in heaven as far as im concerned wow.

It's a good place to be most of the time...a little close to the city, but out in the country too. Stop in if you fly by. It's called Western Airpark (06WN)...just east of Olympia, WA.

Mike

Just curious, how low are the clouds--do you get to fly often ? I looked at moving to the NW, but decided I needed more sunshine--

Clear Days 2.0 2.0 3.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 10.0 9.0 8.0 3.0 2.0 2.0 52.0
Partly Cloudy Days 4.0 4.0 6.0 7.0 9.0 8.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 8.0 5.0 4.0 84.0
Cloudy Days 25.0 22.0 22.0 20.0 18.0 16.0 11.0 12.0 13.0 20.0 23.0 26.0 228
Avg. Relative Humidity 64.5 85.5 81.0 76.0 73.5 73.0 72.5 70.5 71.5 74.0 80.0 86.5 88.5

here's the same statistics for where I live:

Clear Days 9.0 8.0 8.0 7.0 6.0 6.0 7.0 8.0 9.0 9.0 6.0 8.0 90.0
Partly Cloudy Days 7.0 8.0 8.0 8.0 10.0 12.0 12.0 11.0 9.0 9.0 8.0 8.0 109
Cloudy Days 15.0 13.0 15.0 15.0 15.0 12.0 12.0 12.0 12.0 13.0 16.0 15.0 166
Percent of Possible Sunshine 52.0 55.0 53.0 53.0 55.0 58.0 62.0 60.0 56.0 53.0 42.0 47.0 54.0
Avg. Relative Humidity 54.5 67.5 66.0 64.0 61.5 64.0 68.0 69.5 71.5 71.0 67.5 69.5 71.0

I just sold my 180 last week and this thread is simply depressing. I needed a larger plane to accommodate the family. I'm thinking I should have accommodated the airplane instead. "FS: 2005 boy, low time in good condition"

Brett

skywagon63d wrote:It's a good place to be most of the time...a little close to the city, but out in the country too. Stop in if you fly by. It's called Western Airpark (06WN)...just east of Olympia, WA.

Mike

I definitely will if I am ever so fortunate to own my own plane and fly it to Vancouver, i'll be calling for a spot. Awesome.