Rod,
I agree Taildown was not the only bad actor in this play. I think the 206 guy was pissed off and decided to scare the shit out of what he saw is a flock of birds hogging the runway with no consideration for the planes ready to take off. In that situation I have found that if one Pilot takes the lead and puts on a controller hat he can make a difference for safety. For example #1 to land is extending to allow 206 to take off on runway 18. What follows is that # 2 to land extends downwind for #2 to take off and so on.
I have personally been involved in this scenario out west many times. The first time I experienced it I came away thinking that pilot has his stuff together and I want to do that the next time I am in a similar situation. It is amazing how quickly everyone in the pattern, taking off and landing sync up just like there was a controller in a tower calling the shots. Unless you are a suicidal midair crispy critter waiting to happen you will get with the program.

A way out! Thank you Taildown!

PS - I agree with your example Green Hornet. For what it is worth!

What are FAVA beans??
Could be good!!
GT

A way out! Thank you Taildown!

Glad to do it Skystrider. I really didn't mean to antagonize so many folks.

What are FAVA beans??

GT- Didn't you ever see Anthony Hopkins as Hanibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs? You know, "I ate his liver with some fava beans and a little Chianti".

Fava Beans are sorta like small garbanzo beans only more slimy. Oh crap, now I've probably insulted some dedicated fava bean farmer who flies his 195 from his bean field. What more can you expect from a "bad actor" like me? Maybe I shoulda stuck to burning ants with my magnifying glass and cutting the heads off barbie dolls.

You guys crack me up. Hey Green Hornet- Come on out to Cali and stay in my guest house for a few day, drink a few too many of my beers, tell me a bunch of cool stories and stuff and we will call it good. If you still think I am such a "bad actor" you can go home mad, but at least you'll know for sure one way or the other and you will have had a few nice sunny winter days in So Cal. You are welcome here anytime! (and I mean that- no sarcasm!)

Same goes for the rest of you guys. Meeting a lot of your someday has definitely made it onto my "bucket list". Our guesthouse is always open for any BCP'ers (except during Christmas, unless you want to bunk with Uncle Bob).



Mark

flyer wrote:I would not involve the feds nor the airport manager in this. We all do stupid things. I would definitely have a talk with the pilot and tell him how his actions affected you. It appears that he was in the wrong. If you made a mistake or did something stupid, would you not sooner have the other person talk to you first? Take a neutral person with you and split a 6 pack and talk it over. He is also part of the Brother/Sisterhood.

flyer

Now I am serious. I second what flyer said.

Cheers...Rob

Mark
I want to thank you for the post. It was a good one and a very thought provoking effort.
I don't think you will ever upset me!!
We all have our opinions just like we all have an AH.
Never did get much of a kick out of those type movie's, just not my cupotea.
Skystryder and I had a pretty good discussion and I think we both came to believe that we both look at things a little different.
These discussions are what make this blog worth looking at.
Hope all read and keep an open mind, take it all with a grain of salt and just a little whiskey to make it all go down easy.
The whole point is to enjoy life, the sky and each other if we get a chance.
Mark thanks again for getting it started.
GT

Taildown wrote:
Hey Green Hornet- Come on out to Cali and stay in my guest house for a few day, drink a few too many of my beers, tell me a bunch of cool stories and stuff and we will call it good. If you still think I am such a "bad actor" you can go home mad, but at least you'll know for sure one way or the other and you will have had a few nice sunny winter days in So Cal. You are welcome here anytime! (and I mean that- no sarcasm!)
Mark

Mark,
I understand your anger with a pilot taking off against the the flow of traffic. Hell that would have anyone melting the David Clark muffler on the mike. The "not the only bad actor comment" was to get you thinking about what could I have done to avoid this situation in the future. I always assume until I get a visual and communications going that the other Traffic can and will do anything! Hell I have seen them do unbelievable moves at controlled airports and I've screwed the pooch a couple of times myself.
You were on downwind so did you have a visual on the 206? I'm just saying he would have been a concern for me because he is a new factor in the pattern. Personally I would have asked him his intentions just before the #'s on the downwind and took control of the pattern if he was not announcing. You asked "What's the proper etiquette?"
Thanks for the invite it is a small world maybe we will have a few beers someday - No Worries

by M6RV6 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:23 pm
Mark
I want to thank you for the post. It was a good one and a very thought provoking effort.

Well, thanks. That was my intent. I learn something most every time I commit aviation. Based on the recent threads regarding "canyon turns" I am scheduled for an hour and a half with my CFI tomorrow to try to figure out the best/safest way to do a defensive 180 in my S7

by Green Hornet: You were on downwind so did you have a visual on the 206? I'm just saying he would have been a concern for me because he is a new factor in the pattern.

Yep, on the downwind I saw him on the taxiway still about at mid-field. As I turned to base I noted that he was starting to taxi towards the south end of the taxiway. He was a concern to me at that point 'cause he was doing something unexpected (going to the "wrong end" of the field).

Personally I would have asked him his intentions just before the #'s on the downwind and took control of the pattern if he was not announcing

Good advice, and in retrospect that would have been a good course of action. I don't know if I could have "taken control of the pattern" as I think he had his mind made up as to his course of action, was oblivious to the wind direction, other planes etc and was just on his way to depart on 36 no matter what. After considering all the discussion, counseling and review in this thread, I think my best course of action would have been to have remained at pattern altitude, overflown the runway offset to one side where I could keep an eye on him, and go around for another try once he both announced and displayed his intentions. I don't trust the radio for reasons I mentioned earlier regarding whether folks really comprehend what they hear, so I chose to watch to see what he would do. Someone suggested earlier evasive action, and I think he was probably right.

And for all here, I am sincere with the invitation for a place to stay in "Fabulous Fallbrook". I've certainly benefited from the generosity of strangers enough in my time, and am more than happy to do my part in return.

Mark

One last point I have noticed that some pilots learn how to announce there position but don't really talk to each other. I always like it when the radio procedure, position talk, goes away and we just talk straight to each other. That also works when talking to the tower at the correct time. I know what they are doing and "they" know what I am going to do. If that fails then like you said maintain pattern altitude and avoid the midair collision.
Have a nice weekend I enjoyed the thread.

For those who like to play chicken in planes...

How about letting him know that you were using an in-plane video camera to record the sights and sounds of your landings that day (BLUFFING, of course! But he will not know that). Advise him that you have the audio of his radio comments, including his N number, since your speaker was on in your quiet Rotax powered experimental, and you have great video of his flying style. Then let him know that a sincere "I'm sorry, and I will not do that again" is all it will take to keep you from sending the video and audio to the Fed's. Follow that up with "If you do it in the future, the tape will be in the mail."

After his appology, offer him a beer and enjoy getting to know another pilot.

P.S. When I am just burning gas in the pattern and hear a Citation or King Air or other big thirsty kerosene burner announce that they are 10 miles out for a straight in, I usually OFFER to make spacing for them so they are not having to wait for my pattern and 60mph final over the fence (I know I have the right-of-way, and could tell them to screw off and join the pattern). The pilots are usually appreciative. I just enjoy the longer downwind or the 360, because I just want to fly longer. They enjoy not having to ammend their straight-in, and burn another 60lbs of fuel. The same offer can be made the thirsty plane holding short to take off, and waiting for spacing.

SpamCanFlier wrote:.....I know I have the right-of-way, and could tell them to screw off and join the pattern.....

Not necesarily. It might be an eye-opener for you to read FAR 91.113 "right of way rules". Matter of fact, that jet on a 10-mile straight-in probably does have the right of way per 91.113 (g), since he is on final approach to land.
Now before ya flame me, read 91.113. And remember I'm talking rules here, not manners.

Eric

In the grand scheme of things...

I know I've screwed up and pulled out in front of people before without seeing or hearing them, and I've been woke up a time or two by bonehead moves with folks doing the same to me.

Stuff happens.

If it's an honest mistake you get shook up a bit and vow to learn from it, and never let it happen again. If you're an arrogant prick and don't care if people gotta get out of your way, no amount of screams, yells or threats are gonna change that behavior so you're just wasting time and energy. Let Kharma take care of it in due time.

If a guy's bigger, faster, more $$$$ to be up there, what's the big hurry that I can't widen out or extend a pattern to let 'em go first. Or, if I gotta sit in run-up a few more seconds, I get to see if they f**k up the landing. That's your real revenge. They know you saw it. Even the jerks get embarrassed.

Gump

hotrod150 wrote:

SpamCanFlier wrote:.....I know I have the right-of-way, and could tell them to screw off and join the pattern.....

Not necesarily. It might be an eye-opener for you to read FAR 91.113 "right of way rules". Matter of fact, that jet on a 10-mile straight-in probably does have the right of way per 91.113 (g), since he is on final approach to land.
Now before ya flame me, read 91.113. And remember I'm talking rules here, not manners.

Eric

No, he still doesn't have the right of way. He's not in the pattern at 10 miles. If so where do you draw the line? A Citation can fly the pattern not very much faster than any piston retract like my Bo. He'll have no trouble doing 110 knots. He just doesn't want to fly a pattern.

" Even the jerks get embarassed."
Well Stated!

I definitely wouldn't start writing letters. What are you doing flying out of an airport anyway? You coulda flipped a negative into a positive in a heartbeat and found an excuse to land sideways in the adjacent McDonalds parking lot. "My goodness officer, that guy was blasting off with what i took to be hostile intentions and it was my only choice to save all of our lives". Then you'll get to be on Oprah and showered with adulation all over the place. I don't think it's possible to piss me off in the sky. I just think of people as another bit of nature. Don't hit the tree, don't smack into those power lines, don't collide mid-air into the idiot over there who may or may not know what he's doing, etc. I'm pretty sure half of the time I'm wrong anyway tho and maybe you run a little tighter ship than me. Either way, it's a fun discussion, so thanky and don't have a heart attack. You own a plane. You're a lucky man.

Bonanza Man,

ten years ago I spend hours pouring over the FARS and AIM trying to find a DEFINITIVE answer to a "pattern position" as I remember, the best I could do was a diagram with vauge distances...example...if I'm 5 miles out and parrallel to the "downwind" , am I on downwind?....same for the big guy on "10 mile final"....when does "lined up for final" become final....1 mile...1/2 mile....
Figure that you would have a reg-based answer..with no bs

THX
Bill

I would: 1. File an ASRS report, and 2. Contact the local FAASTeam. They are your local safety counselors who are NOT FAA reps, but are volunteers in the pursuit of aviation safety. They can counsel the offender without actually getting the FAA involved. (The name is somewhat a misnomer - the FAASTeam - FAA Safety Team - is not part of the FAA. The only FAA person on the team is usually the program manager who is there to help guide the team of volunteers).

I would also remember that not every approach terminates in a landing - flexibility is key to safe flying.

ASW.

n2485q wrote:Bonanza Man,

ten years ago I spend hours pouring over the FARS and AIM trying to find a DEFINITIVE answer to a "pattern position" as I remember, the best I could do was a diagram with vauge distances...example...if I'm 5 miles out and parrallel to the "downwind" , am I on downwind?....same for the big guy on "10 mile final"....when does "lined up for final" become final....1 mile...1/2 mile....
Figure that you would have a reg-based answer..with no bs

THX
Bill

There is no reg based answer. The FAA did a good thing here. You hear a guy on a 10 mile final do the math yourself. Me, I'm turning base.

BM is right. It always seems to stun pilots to discover that the FAA really doesn't regulate or dictate every little procedure, at least in VFR flight. Traffic pattern procedures are RECOMMENDED in the AIM, but the only two regulations that address uncontrolled airport traffic patterns specifically are 91.126 and the one previously noted.

The FAA does expect us to see and avoid, and to use some common sense. Sometimes, that's a lot to ask, apparently.

I still say grab a six pack of cold beer, and go visit the "offender", with a positive attitude, and an open mind. Leave the accusatory approach at home. You might just find out he's a nice guy, you might make a new friend, and you might just help to make your airport and others a safer place. Finally, you might help to save the guy's life.

What have you got to lose?

As to the "FAASTeam", be aware that FAASTeam Representatives are NOT FAA employees. But, the folks who'll answer the phone for the FAASTeam ARE indeed FAA Inspectors. That system is supposed to provide improved safety through education, and it can work. Just be careful who you talk to in these kinds of deals.

MTV